How long until recurring billing....

[BradShaw]

With all the scrambling going on the last week or so, I see as many, if not more people running scams and running to scams. At some point will visa/mc say fuck it, and kill recurring billing for adult?

I think it is very possible, I would say 1-2 years. I figure when recurring billing dies, would be a good time to retire.

[Trev]

It's surprised me that it's lasted this long. I wonder how much money the cc companies actually make in charge backs? <_<

[Winetalk.com]

Brad,
I think you are ON THE MONEY this time

[Winetalk.com]

Brad,
will you keep posting on Oprano after you retire and the whole industry fucks up?

be just like me,
it's fun!
;_)))

[Mike AI]

Yeah, that is my concern as well... the cockholsters in this industry have gotten us to this point, and they will continue to run scams on surfers, and find ways to steal.

It is frustrating that VISA does not just find these people and shut them down. Instead they use a shotgun approach and attack us all! Of cousre I cannot blame VISA, I am sure they are tired of dealing with all the scams, and lump us all together.

Wish we could get a real group of people from the biz, an honest group who have no dirt on their hands to approach VISA.... I would be more then happy to consult and point out who the cockholsters are, what scams they are doing, and their history.

[BradShaw]

Mike, I think cleaning up this industry would be almost impossible. Far too much $ for people to make running scams, that they run from one to another. Some have retired of late, where is babenet?

Ran into orgasm.com the other day, says site is free, but then charges you a processing fee of $2.68 which is strictly against visa rules. Not to mention FTC.

[gonzo]

Originally posted by BradShaw@Jul 18 2003, 08:29 AM
Mike, I think cleaning up this industry would be almost impossible. Far too much $ for people to make running scams, that they run from one to another. Some have retired of late, where is babenet?

Ran into orgasm.com the other day, says site is free, but then charges you a processing fee of $2.68 which is strictly against visa rules. Not to mention FTC.
Ocash....fucking spammers

[Hell Puppy]

Yup, given the time frames that Visa works, this is one of the next logical steps and I think probably next 6-18 months is a good time frame.

They would've killed it already if they thought they could get away with shutting down recurring on porn without shutting it down on people like AOL.

I think the next step will be to require some sort of manual step required on the part of the surfer to acknowledge that they want to continue their membership for another term.

This will protect AOL (you'll have to click something at logon each month) and other ventures where users legitimately want to continue their subscription. What it will kill is all of the money that is made off of people who forget to cancel. I fear that's substantial.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jul 18 2003, 12:56 PM
This will protect AOL (you'll have to click something at logon each month) and other ventures where users legitimately want to continue their subscription. What it will kill is all of the money that is made off of people who forget to cancel. I fear that's substantial.
It will hurt AOL a LOT so it should be interesting to see if they make them implement it also. I'm betting there's a large number of AOL users that don't log on/check their email for months at a time.

Are you and the G-man going to the shindig tonight? I'm going to Part 1 and then head home. I'm happy seeing everyone clothed. :okthumb:

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by Peaches+Jul 18 2003, 12:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Jul 18 2003, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Hell Puppy@Jul 18 2003, 12:56 PM
This will protect AOL (you'll have to click something at logon each month) and other ventures where users legitimately want to continue their subscription. What it will kill is all of the money that is made off of people who forget to cancel. I fear that's substantial.
It will hurt AOL a LOT so it should be interesting to see if they make them implement it also. I'm betting there's a large number of AOL users that don't log on/check their email for months at a time.

Are you and the G-man going to the shindig tonight? I'm going to Part 1 and then head home. I'm happy seeing everyone clothed. :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
There are lots of angles that can be taken on both sides to deal with forgotten recurrings. But no doubt companies like AOL, Netflix, etc would feel it as well. It'll be fascinating to see just what percentage of that recurring revenue are slack asses who no longer use something but never remember to cancel.

As for tonight's shin-dig, with NatNet involved I was tempted. But I have something planned for tomorrow that I cant get out of that will necessitate that I be up early and reasonably cognisant. And I reckon I'm getting old, their planned festivities do not hold the same appeal to me that it does the GFY crowd anyway. So I'll be having a much more tame evening and in relatively early.

However, I do believe GonZo is planning to be there and use it as a tune up for Florida. So if the whole crowd gets locked up, you may see me later at the jail when I show up to post bail for him.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jul 18 2003, 01:55 PM
As for tonight's shin-dig, with NatNet involved I was tempted. But I have something planned for tomorrow that I cant get out of that will necessitate that I be up early and reasonably cognisant. And I reckon I'm getting old, their planned festivities do not hold the same appeal to me that it does the GFY crowd anyway. So I'll be having a much more tame evening and in relatively early.
That's my problem - I have a 10 AM meeting up here, so even staying in Atlanta was out of the question, let alone being out late. I figure when they head to the clubs, I'll hit 575. B)

I was in Atlanta for dinner Wednesday night and played Bingo last night - with tonight, that will be my "partying" for the rest of the month. :zzz:

[Peaches]

Getting back on track....will the CC companies even HAVE to take the recurring billing off other companies? Seems like they've singled out the adult industry in many different ways, why not this one?

And, in an effort to bring it up again :awinky: ACH will still be able to recur. B)

[gonzo]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy+Jul 18 2003, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hell Puppy @ Jul 18 2003, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Peaches@Jul 18 2003, 12:10 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Hell Puppy@Jul 18 2003, 12:56 PM
This will protect AOL (you'll have to click something at logon each month) and other ventures where users legitimately want to continue their subscription. What it will kill is all of the money that is made off of people who forget to cancel. I fear that's substantial.
It will hurt AOL a LOT so it should be interesting to see if they make them implement it also. I'm betting there's a large number of AOL users that don't log on/check their email for months at a time.

Are you and the G-man going to the shindig tonight? I'm going to Part 1 and then head home. I'm happy seeing everyone clothed. :okthumb:
There are lots of angles that can be taken on both sides to deal with forgotten recurrings. But no doubt companies like AOL, Netflix, etc would feel it as well. It'll be fascinating to see just what percentage of that recurring revenue are slack asses who no longer use something but never remember to cancel.

As for tonight's shin-dig, with NatNet involved I was tempted. But I have something planned for tomorrow that I cant get out of that will necessitate that I be up early and reasonably cognisant. And I reckon I'm getting old, their planned festivities do not hold the same appeal to me that it does the GFY crowd anyway. So I'll be having a much more tame evening and in relatively early.

However, I do believe GonZo is planning to be there and use it as a tune up for Florida. So if the whole crowd gets locked up, you may see me later at the jail when I show up to post bail for him.[/b][/quote]
If those stupid fuckers start smoking crack on the porch again I wont be making it past part 1. So you can hold on to my bail money.



Last edited by gonzo at Jul 18 2003, 10:17 AM

[Biggy]

I don't see recurring billing as going away..... perhaps modifications, but not disappearing.

I think there may be a rigorous screen process to allow it and try to weed out the scammers, but I don't think the companies would kill all subscription-based sites..

It sucks that programs like ocash and others fucking scam people, Visa should find themselves a sweet ass comission of volunteers made up of the biggest players in the adult industry to narc on people who scam, do free trials, etc.

Its not hard to tell the bad programs apart, they have high chargeback ratios, more complaints, etc. I think what visa is doing now is the biggest and preliminary step.. when people get scammed, they charge back - the new visa policies should reduce chargebacks across the board for the adult net, if visa is successful, there would be no reason to kill recurring billing..

now, according to what brad is saying, there is an opposite faction, people going to scams, in the end, that will increase chargebacks and visa will do whats necessary to reduce chargebacks, which could mean modifying rebilling..

visa only has one concern on its mind, reduce chargebacks and fraud, i don't think they have their eyes on recurring billing yet, i think their focus right now is on the new policies (At least I hope).

IMO, if the new policies dont work, they will look for other measures to reduce chargebacks, which ultimately could lead to modification of the rebilling business model.

I support Visa and its new policies, I think its a big step, and I do think it will work. You are always gonna have those "evil" surfers out there who buy shit with the intention to charge back and get it free, but i think a lot of it, in fact most of the chargebacks, comes from trials - when surfers agree to pay a few bucks for a few days, maybe even get it for free, and not realize they will get rebilled at 40 bucks a month when they forget to cancel or dont even realize they have to cancel..

its like that columbia house program, when you join the program, you have to say "NO I DONT WANT THE CD OF THE MONTH" or else they send it to you anyways - mark my words at least 80% of the time, people send back the CD since they dont want it.. same thing with porn.

[Biggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jul 18 2003, 08:12 AM
Brad,
I think you are ON THE MONEY this time
Serge, are you always right? :D

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Biggy+Jul 18 2003, 03:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Biggy @ Jul 18 2003, 03:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jul 18 2003, 08:12 AM
Brad,
I think you are ON THE MONEY this time
Serge, are you always right? :D[/b][/quote]
nope,
_sometimes_ I vote democratic too,
which practicaly makes me _left_
;-)))

[Biggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jul 18 2003, 12:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jul 18 2003, 12:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Biggy@Jul 18 2003, 03:21 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jul 18 2003, 08:12 AM
Brad,
I think you are ON THE MONEY this time
Serge, are you always right? :D
nope,
_sometimes_ I vote democratic too,
which practicaly makes me _left_
;-)))[/b][/quote]
I may have to dig up old Netpond posts..

something about you recomending a cybercop website stock..
that as the internet was going to boom, so was fraud, and the whole cybercrime industry would grow :)

whose counting anyways?

:nyanya:

[Mike AI]

HAHAHA Serge, Biggy might have been taking his Vietamin E more then you!!

Not many people have better memories the Serge...

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 18 2003, 03:40 PM
HAHAHA Serge, Biggy might have been taking his Vietamin E more then you!!

Not many people have better memories the Serge...
he doesn't...
I NEVER-EVER recomended ANY internet stocks,
I never been buying them,
I was one of those who sold hot air on the net and I knew EXACTLY what they were selling -
the same hot air..

therefore,
Biggy's memory is out of whack
;-)))

[ulfie]

If recurring billing goes away it will make things tougher but there are many other options. It's a shame all of the scammers have brought us to this point though. AMEX dumped adult so I don't see a reason why MC/Visa couldn't do the same. Before you go thinking class action suit, think again. I'm a party in one against Visa that was filed in 1996 and I just got a letter a few weeks ago that it's finally going to court. 7 years of legal fees will surely eat up most of the settlement if we win. I hate lawyers. Sorry Mike. ;)

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by Biggy@Jul 18 2003, 01:22 PM
Visa should find themselves a sweet ass comission of volunteers made up of the biggest players in the adult industry to narc on people who scam, do free trials, etc.

Are you kidding? You know how big that can of worms would be?

There would be MAJOR sabotage going on. Someone on this commission finds out a competitor is fucking his wife and next thing you know, the competitor is getting hsi Visa account yanked...nope, I'd never support that.

Remember the reason all of these attempts at getting a lobbying group have been fucked...Ego!

Who would deicde who gets on this board? I know a few people in this industry that are "players" that I wouldn't even trust to babysit my own kids much less be on a board that may impact my business over ego and petty squabbles. Sorry, I just don't have that much faith in many of the people in this industry.



Last edited by SykkBoy at Jul 18 2003, 03:56 PM

[Biggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jul 18 2003, 12:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jul 18 2003, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Jul 18 2003, 03:40 PM
HAHAHA Serge, Biggy might have been taking his Vietamin E more then you!!

Not many people have better memories the Serge...
he doesn't...
I NEVER-EVER recomended ANY internet stocks,
I never been buying them,
I was one of those who sold hot air on the net and I knew EXACTLY what they were selling -
the same hot air..

therefore,
Biggy's memory is out of whack
;-)))[/b][/quote]
hmm Serge,

I could've sworn it was you. Now why would I remember such a thing. If it wasn't you, then it was webfather :) It was one of you, I'm sure of it...

I'm a pretty young guy, my memory is pretty good :)

[BradShaw]

Myself and another unnamed homo webmaster put $25k into an etrade account for shit and giggles. This was right before tech stocks died. I am lucky to still have $7k in there!

[Rolo]

I would say that its about time that we as an industry start to move more transactions to other payment options... The rules from VISA/MC will only get more and more strict.

The latest VISA/MC rules are just smoke from the real fire, which will happende sometime down the road. If we start to move more of our transactions to other payment options now, then we will not be burned as much when VISA/MC goes up in flames.

We have started to seriously look into new payment options AND affiliate payout models. They need to go hand in hand to be successful. Ofcourse credit cards are still a major part of the setup, but the good thing is that they can be replaced by other credit/debit cards, and other local payment options in many major countries. When we are done, then I actual think we will be able to bill more people than now, however the overall income per member will be lower, but that shouldn´t be a problem, since we will successful bill more members.

Short term, then VISA/MC is still the best choice, but if you look long term then you better start to make decisions on who is going to decide if you will be in business - you or VISA/MC!

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Biggy@Jul 18 2003, 06:54 PM

hmm Serge,

I could've sworn it was you. Now why would I remember such a thing. If it wasn't you, then it was webfather :) It was one of you, I'm sure of it...

I'm a pretty young guy, my memory is pretty good :)
Webfather was playing with Internet stocks...

as for your "young memory",
do you "partake"?
;-)))

[Sabby]

Horny men who like porn will continue to pay... and they will enjoy paying...

unless you have a shitty product that they really dont want to begin with.

I have guys waiting in line to pay 3.99/min to take me prvt every nite, and I get emailed because they couldnt get in too see me by the time i log out at night.

I dont think you have to trick them to get their money... you just have to
give them what they want to see :)

Why not a (resonable) per minute module for paysites?


Sabby:)

[Biggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano+Jul 19 2003, 02:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serge_Oprano @ Jul 19 2003, 02:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Biggy@Jul 18 2003, 06:54 PM

hmm Serge,

I could've sworn it was you. Now why would I remember such a thing. If it wasn't you, then it was webfather :) It was one of you, I'm sure of it...

I'm a pretty young guy, my memory is pretty good :)
Webfather was playing with Internet stocks...

as for your "young memory",
do you "partake"?
;-)))[/b][/quote]
Yes, but I don't inhale. :unsure:

[Mike AI]

I hate lawyers. Sorry Mike.

Ulfie so do I... that is why I started HiRise rather then be an attorney. The American Trial Lawyer Association are single handedly ruining this country!

We need major law reform in the United States very soon!!

[*KK*]

Personally I don't think recurring billing will stop before Visa or MC pulls out of the business entirely. Which I think is a logical step down the road. The problem as I see it is that Visa doesn't stop to look at the fact that most all internet business -- or card not present like phone sales -- has to be treated in a different manner than card present sales.

There is no other way to do it.

But that's up to them to realize that the fraud control methods and the crap they do behind the scenes does not discourage the situations or solve the problems either.

Stupid, stupid, stupid, all the way around.

Of course I haven't had a cigarette since Thursday either so you'll have to pardon me if I seem a bit on the ready to bash in someone's head with a blunt object side of things too.

[Mike AI]

Of course I haven't had a cigarette since Thursday either so you'll have to pardon me if I seem a bit on the ready to bash in someone's head with a blunt object side of things too.



Good luck with KK!!

Keep it up!!

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jul 19 2003, 03:31 PM
Of course I haven't had a cigarette since Thursday either so you'll have to pardon me if I seem a bit on the ready to bash in someone's head with a blunt object side of things too.



Good luck with KK!!

Keep it up!!
Sorry Michael, I'm nice and calm again now...