Don't blame the newbies! Your thoughts?

[OzKaNoz]

Many think that the problems we have are because there are to many newbies coming into the adult industry and thining out the money pot.

It's not the newbies that are the problem.
The problem is the hugh amounts of free porn on the internet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"

There is no reason for a surfer to sign up to a program when they can go to a 1000 different sites and have access to 1000's free porn pictures on each site.

Reducing the amount of free porn on the net is the anwser to a lot of problems, the main one being why can't I convert?

Nah, it's not the newbies that are the problem. That's a cop out.
Free porn is the problem.

Oz

[Tonda_WEGCash]

I personally think part of the problem stems from the price we are charging for a paysite these days. Since I have been in this industry I have seen prices go from $9.95 per month to now upwards of $39.95 per month. This does not include cross sales which have become so popular. If a surfer takes the cross sales they are looking at upwards of $100 per month in charges.

In my opinion, this is why retention sucks. Why did we get to this point? My opinion is that the affiliate wars began and the price being paid out per signup kept rising and in order to pay webmasters the price for the surfer had to increase.

Here is food for thought...what if the "who could pay the most" war never happened and we were still at a $19.95 or a $29.95 membership....do you think we would be making more or less money???

[cj]

Originally posted by OzKaNoz@Jun 24 2003, 04:00 PM
Many think that the problems we have are because there are to many newbies coming into the adult industry and thining out the money pot.

It's not the newbies that are the problem.
The problem is the hugh amounts of free porn on the internet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"

There is no reason for a surfer to sign up to a program when they can go to a 1000 different sites and have access to 1000's free porn pictures on each site.

Reducing the amount of free porn on the net is the anwser to a lot of problems, the main one being why can't I convert?

Nah, it's not the newbies that are the problem. That's a cop out.
Free porn is the problem.

Oz
Who the fuck do you think put up all the free porn?!??!

the fucking newbies!!! that's who! all the idiots who jumped in after the gold rush was over so they could run cool sites with free porn for their chat buddies!!

do you see anyone on oprano talking about how many free movies they can put in their tgp sites?!!?!??! or asking for 'gallery critique'?!??!?!

>>"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"

duh, the problem with newbies is stating the blatantly obvious, while building a tgp with the other hand and ADDING to the problem.



Tonda, EXCELLENT post ... which came first, high payouts, or high charges to surfers? i can't even remember any more LOL The high payout part is the general's fault :biglaugh:

[Vick]

Adding to the problem is the novelty has worn off, the bloom is off the internet rose so to speak

Funny thing is 3+ years ago I said we were each working for growth but in the future we would be working for market share - that's where we are now

Further compounding the problem is MANY so called webmasters couldn't sell a cure to cancer to an oncology lab
- there is an ASTOUNDING LACK OF SALES SAVVY AND ABILITY IN THIS INDUSTRY. Not so much on the part of affiliate programs/pay sites (or I should say some paysites) as much as free site owners

[cj]

I agree Vick ...

What can we expect though when we all told people how 'easy' it was to make money in porn ... they are all here expecting to stick up a few banners and get rich ... we told them that was possible (or we showed them with our example)

This is a good newbie name ... Miss D Boat :biglaugh:

[Vick]

CJ - ah ha ha ha excellent newbie name :lol:


Don't know if you saw it down under but it sure didn't help 5 years ago when Jon David said on 20/20 (or dateline) he was making a million a year running an adult site

I'm still riding the storm out hoping that eventually porn darwinism will keep thinning the herd and the evolution of the industry keeps moving in a more professional business manner

I don't remember telling many, if any how easy it was to make $ in porn

[voodooman]

Originally posted by Tonda_WEGCash@Jun 24 2003, 06:53 PM
I personally think part of the problem stems from the price we are charging for a paysite these days. Since I have been in this industry I have seen prices go from $9.95 per month to now upwards of $39.95 per month. This does not include cross sales which have become so popular. If a surfer takes the cross sales they are looking at upwards of $100 per month in charges.

In my opinion, this is why retention sucks. Why did we get to this point? My opinion is that the affiliate wars began and the price being paid out per signup kept rising and in order to pay webmasters the price for the surfer had to increase.

Here is food for thought...what if the "who could pay the most" war never happened and we were still at a $19.95 or a $29.95 membership....do you think we would be making more or less money???
I agree with Tonda.

As everything drops, prices for memberships go up.

Content, way cheaper than when I started in 98.
Domains, way cheaper
hosting, way cheaper, etc....

I still put up free porn, but look for that to end soon too.
Submitting gallerys these days is like playing craps.
It doesnt matter how nice or well designed your gallery
is, unless your a prefered partner, 85% chance its getting
kicked, and if your like me, I dont use autosubmitters, I build
everything by hand, even the 100 recip pages, and cater to
each of the tgps, as they all have different rules, and still
I have a 80-85% site kick.

TGP's are starting, or have thier own paysites, which they utilize
hosted gallerys, instead of webmaster submissions, so the common
webmaster, or 'newbies' will fall to the wayside soon, IMO.

[OzKaNoz]

Originally posted by cj@Jun 24 2003, 06:35 PM
we showed them with our example

See that there is part of the problem. I have to agree with you on that. But it all still boils down to to much free porn on the net.
Great replies everyone.

Oz

[Timon]

Originally posted by cj@Jun 24 2003, 09:22 PM
do you see anyone on oprano talking about how many free movies they can put in their tgp sites?!!?!??! or asking for 'gallery critique'?!??!?!
Yeah sometimes.... but I always quickly tell them to fuck off ;-)

[Timon]

Originally posted by OzKaNoz@Jun 24 2003, 11:32 PM
But it all still boils down to to much free porn on the net.
The problem is easily findable free porn...

Back in the day there was free porn too, but you had to scroll past 15 banners to get to a page where 1 out of 5 links gave you free porn and 4 out of 5 links would send you straight back to the Top50 you just came from... all with a warning page where the ENTER link sends you to the site's sponsor ;-)

The free porn needs to be there so surfers keep looking for it, get frustrated looking for it and end up getting so frustrated that they just keep paying their $40 a month so they don't have to waste hours trying to find it...

I wish the Communications Decency Act hadn't failed ;-(

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by OzKaNoz@Jun 24 2003, 04:00 PM
Many think that the problems we have are because there are to many newbies coming into the adult industry and thining out the money pot.


I didn't even know we had problems.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Jun 24 2003, 09:35 PM
Miss D Boat :biglaugh:
Laugh. Newbies should get given nicknames, like the frat brothers in Animal House. ;-)

[sarettah]

Who the fuck do you think put up all the free porn?!??!
the fucking newbies!!! that's who! all the idiots who jumped in after the gold rush was over so they could run cool sites with free porn for their chat buddies!!
do you see anyone on oprano talking about how many free movies they can put in their tgp sites?!!?!??! or asking for 'gallery critique'?!??!?!

>>"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"

duh, the problem with newbies is stating the blatantly obvious, while building a tgp with the other hand and ADDING to the problem.


As pretty much a newbie (A year and a half since I built my first site) I felt that I should go ahead, jump in and get my ass kicked...err...I mean state my opinion on this....

Yes, the problem is too much free porn, but newbies did not create this problem and for many newbies (don't know about majority, but I do know about the ones coming out of vnwr) we are trying hard not to contribute to the problem.

I build "Webmaster Friendly Sites" whenever possible....
http://www.vnwr.com/linkwfa/listrules.html

The WFA guidelines promote "herding the cattle to the sponsor" more than giving away the candy store. I build with the softest pics I can find in a set. I make my thumbs small, my big pics no more than 500 on the long side and place the emphasis on the sponsor more than on the pics I am showing. If I could, I would have 1 picture to every 3 sponsor links... Unfortunately, I can't.

The first thing a newbie learns is that to make a sale they have to get traffic. To get traffic, they have to get into the SEs, the Linklists and if they choose to do TGP, the TGP lists... (I have done very little TGPing as I don't think I can afford the BW and I firmly believe the current TGP model contributes to the problem) with getting into the Linklists being the real key to getting traffic quickly...

The Linklists have been around for a while, so most of them are not run by newbies. The linklists set the rules for what will get listed. More and more, the linklists are becoming more "surfer friendly" with their rules.

The trend on the linklists is More pics, better quality pics and less consoles and links to sponsors.....

Just using 3 of the ones I am listed at as examples (I am not ragging on them, but the rest tend to follow the biggies..I love the traffic they send me btw..)

At Richards... for Free sites.... Minimum 20 pics, no more than 3 banners/lnks to sponsors per page, No exit consoles or excessive use of other consoles, No AVS, No poor quality pics, No "images courtesy of" (sponsor provided free sets), No Blind links, No FPAS between the warning and main page.

At Greenguys... Minimum 20 pics, minimum 10 per page. No Popups... (rest of the rules very similar to Richards)

At PK... Minimum 30 pics, No Popups, 1 FPA allowed, No Blind links...

And in my opinion, these 3 are 3 of the more webmaster friendly lists out there these days...

If I could, I would build my sites using nothing but censored, sponsor provided content... I would have a popunder as they came in and I would banish every surfer that did not click through to the sponsor to popup hell... I would have each picture on an html page by itself with at least 3 links to sponsors, I would have an FPA going to each big pic and an FPA coming from each pic... I would CJ each and every surfer out there until their head spins and they click on the sponsor.........

Unfortunately, I would not get listed anywhere, I would not get any really good targetted traffic and I would get less sales than I do now (which would be hard to do...lol)

A very disturbing trend (imo) is the "free hosted galleries" being provided by the sponsors.... These add to the problem of too much free porn out there... I went and checked last night at freehostedgalleries.com and they list over 25,000 galleries that you can put up just by clicking on the button... Hell they even embed the referral codes in the gallery for you...

Another bad trend is the increasing quality of the free content being offered by sponsors... better quality and less restrictions on the use of it....

And last (for now..lol) but not least in contributing to the problem is the lowering of content prices by the content providers... I have spent about $1500.00 on content so far (not a lot of money by any means). A few years ago when I started watching the industry, the amount of content I have at the quality I have would have run me about $10,000.00... For $20.00 nowadays I can buy sets of 100+ pics at paysite quality.... If I am using these for my freesite building and the surfer clicks to the sponsor and sees the same quality of pics he saw for free he is going to end up canceling... No reason to spend his money...which is why I purposely go with the soft stuff, over compress on purpose, etc.... I want the paysite quality to appear much better than my free site quality... Unfortunately, this can cost me listings...

So, while some newbies may be contributing to the problem as CJ stated by putting up "free sites for their chat buddies", many of us are trying to not be part of the problem. Unfortunately, we do not set the rules, we can only follow them. The veterans of the industry are setting the rules and they are unfortunately exacerbating the problem rather than trying to solve it.

just imho of course..... Let the bashing begin.......

[Shok]

aww the good old days before TGP's, getting my ass shaved left and right but still smiled at the end of the day.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by sarettah@Jun 25 2003, 10:08 AM
A very disturbing trend (imo) is the "free hosted galleries" being provided by the sponsors
This is a very disturbing trend ... for the middle man. It's baffling to me how long good ideas take to take hold. I've been talking about this for years. Hosted galleries means the paysite owner cuts out the middleman increasing his or her profit. It also allows the TGP (or other) owner to send traffic to free content and get paid for it.

I am certain that the paysite owners will get more and more sophisticated with their galleries and automated systems. The TGP gallery maker is an endangered species and most don't even know it yet. It will take a while though.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by sarettah@Jun 25 2003, 10:08 AM
As pretty much a newbie
You are a very sophisticated newbie. Nice post.

[dantheman]

I like newbies B)

[Tonda_WEGCash]

Not that I don't agree to some degree that there is to much free content but what about all the other things that have done damage to our industry?

I think we would be looking at this with tunnel vision if were to say that the only thing or even the majority of the issues we have are due to newbies and free content.

With this said, I do agree with CJ, there was a period of time where people outside of the industry had the notion of easy money = porn idustry.

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Colin+Jun 25 2003, 08:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jun 25 2003, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--sarettah@Jun 25 2003, 10:08 AM
A very disturbing trend (imo) is the "free hosted galleries" being provided by the sponsors
This is a very disturbing trend ... for the middle man. It's baffling to me how long good ideas take to take hold. I've been talking about this for years. Hosted galleries means the paysite owner cuts out the middleman increasing his or her profit. It also allows the TGP (or other) owner to send traffic to free content and get paid for it.

I am certain that the paysite owners will get more and more sophisticated with their galleries and automated systems. The TGP gallery maker is an endangered species and most don't even know it yet. It will take a while though.[/b][/quote]
Actually Colin, it doesn't cut out the middleman, it cuts out the gallery submitter.

If the tgp owners have a qualified, fresh pool of content to draw from, in the guise of hosted galleries, zipped galleries etc then they don't rely on their submitters.

I've talked to tons of tgp owners in the last 6 months or so and they prefer to use sponsor supplied, or otherwise not supplied by a submitter (ie Spotbrokers) in many cases -- they know the galleries are the same from day one to day 5 or whatever, the variety and quantity is there and they don't get complaints about 'so and so didn't list my gallery' for everyone to read on a message board.

Most of the good tgp owners -- ie Shemp, Sleazy, hiOctane -- the guys that have been around -- realize what it takes to make a profit on that traffic and are very much designed in a manner that encourages a profit all the way around.

The rest of the crap is just stuck out there by newbs or fools who'd rather watch their counter stats spin than cash their checks at the tellers counter.

[BradShaw]

TGP owners are not to blame, they are the best in bed!

[Peaches]

Now THAT was an interesting series of posters. :P

[Mike AI]

There are problems with both sides.

Both from programs that hammer surfers... with cross sells, and other special promos where they think there card is being banged for $25 and he ends up with a $130 VISA charge.

Of course free site webmasters demand to be paid $35+ per signup, so programs have to do things like this to keep payouts high to keep webmasters happy.

The problem with newbies is they look for quick schemes to make money ( like some programs do as well), and many are happy to make $1-2k a month for beer money while in college. So they muddy up the waters...

The reality is, not much will change - because the inherent nature of the internet.... Hence the industry is heading south fast....

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by *KK*@Jun 25 2003, 01:47 PM
Actually Colin, it doesn't cut out the middleman, it cuts out the gallery submitter.
Yes, true. I realized what I said when i was out jogging and was going to come here and correct it (damnit ;-) ) It's never too late to say something wrong. ;-)

[Tonda_WEGCash]

Originally posted by Peaches@Jun 25 2003, 02:45 PM
Now THAT was an interesting series of posters. :P
I planned it that way:)

[sarettah]

Originally posted by *KK*+Jun 25 2003, 01:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jun 25 2003, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Jun 25 2003, 08:26 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--sarettah@Jun 25 2003, 10:08 AM
A very disturbing trend (imo) is the "free hosted galleries" being provided by the sponsors
This is a very disturbing trend ... for the middle man. It's baffling to me how long good ideas take to take hold. I've been talking about this for years. Hosted galleries means the paysite owner cuts out the middleman increasing his or her profit. It also allows the TGP (or other) owner to send traffic to free content and get paid for it.

I am certain that the paysite owners will get more and more sophisticated with their galleries and automated systems. The TGP gallery maker is an endangered species and most don't even know it yet. It will take a while though.
Actually Colin, it doesn't cut out the middleman, it cuts out the gallery submitter.

If the tgp owners have a qualified, fresh pool of content to draw from, in the guise of hosted galleries, zipped galleries etc then they don't rely on their submitters.
[/b][/quote]
I perceive it as a bad trend because of the sheer number of images it introduces...

The site I refed claimed to list 25,000+ sponsor hosted galleries....

I havent looked at many of the hosted galleries.. But the ones I remember looking at a few weeks back had probably 10-12 pics per page....

So, figure that as 250,000 images available for anyone to pick up for their list....

If tgp gallery buildres/submitters want to stay in the game, they'll set up a tgp list, pick up referral codes and make a list of their own sponsor hosted galleries....

[OzKaNoz]

Again, more great replies on this topic.
I guess some webmasters have to have someone to blame for there own lack of skills.

I don't blame the newbie, sure there are some really screwy newbies that get things all screwed up. But not all are that way.

It was said earlier that people get in to this industry thinking it's easy money. But the truth is that it's a lot of hard work.

We all know how really hard it can be. It doesn't happen over night that's for sure.

Freeporn is ever where. And once webmasters snap and start doing something about it, the money pot will be full again.

Oz

[Ironhorse]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned peer to peer networking like Kazaa and them. When you can download entire DVD collections and $ is tight for everyone why would anyone pay the high fees and risk getting the recurr billing etc.

[Almighty Colin]

I don't think there's anything WRONG with the industry or things are going bad or anything like that. The industry is getting normal. There are some people getting extremely wealthy, many middle-class webmasters, and a whole lot of people that try it and go out of business.

Many business models have an extreme boom period at the beginning (like the airline and car industries) where competitors can come in and dominate the market even if they weren't there on day one. Eventually, only the most apt new businesses have a chance and many just come and go.

I'd be surprised if the income distribution looked much different than a standard income distribution for an industry except there would be a longer tail of lower income webmasters because someone can do this for free if they wish.

[cj]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 26 2003, 06:52 AM
I don't think there's anything WRONG with the industry or things are going bad or anything like that. The industry is getting normal.
Colin, I couldn't agree more ...

I am very excited about where the industry is going these days ... don't get me wrong, i've had fun up until now, but i feel like it was all just 'practice' ... like you said, its getting 'normal' ie, more mainstream ... that's only a bad thing if you didn't take this industry seriously in the first place.

I'm starting to see ideals that i've had since starting in mainstream internet becoming more standard in adult - like unique & QUALITY content, tailored pricing plans, 'its easier to keep a customer than get a new one' etc ...

The main change I see happening in the industry over the next 12 months is the drop of high paying pay per signup programs ... The are a lot less companies who are making a profit off paying $40 + per signup now than this time last year, and the recurring model no longer can depend on the customer 'forgetting to cancel' or not being able to find the cancel link ...

Around 3% of our members choose a 6 or 12 monthly membership over a trial or recurring monthly membership when they sign up ... there's still money in subscription sales, but i think there will be a lot of changes in how people present their 'offer' to the customer.

Time will tell I guess.

I'm big kev excited!

[Calculus]

Hey a positive and optimistic post from CJ, what happened, did you get fucked good last night? :bdance:

[DamageX]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 24 2003, 06:30 PM
Further compounding the problem is MANY so called webmasters couldn't sell a cure to cancer to an oncology lab
- there is an ASTOUNDING LACK OF SALES SAVVY AND ABILITY IN THIS INDUSTRY. Not so much on the part of affiliate programs/pay sites (or I should say some paysites) as much as free site owners
That's right on the money. This industry has been technically highly innovative and contributed to Internet being the success it is, but when it comes to the people that make a living from it, many of them are sales retards (the free site people). A lot of the people who made nice coin a few years ago did so simply because they happened to be in the right place at the right time, not because they actually knew what they were doing.

Today, they're trying the same methods that worked back then and they don't work anymore, so the only way of getting more sales, they think, is by throwing out a shitload of free content which in turn will attract more traffic, which will, hopefully, make them more sales. And then you have the next guy doing the same, he needs the traffic too 'cause he's just as stupid as the first one. And voilá, we have a snowball effect.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Calculus@Jun 26 2003, 09:06 AM
Hey a positive and optimistic post from CJ, what happened, did you get fucked good last night? :bdance:
http://awrats.com/images/stayoutta.jpg
<EMBED SRC="http://www.awrats.com/images/stayouutathisone.wav" autostart="false" volume=50 height=20 width=200>



Last edited by sarettah at Jun 26 2003, 07:12 PM

[Vick]

Originally posted by Colin@Jun 26 2003, 06:52 AM
I don't think there's anything WRONG with the industry or things are going bad or anything like that. The industry is getting normal.
This is also very correct

One of my biggest and few regrets is I didn't study new market economies more - the history was all there - Industrial revolution, Auto Manufacturing, Radio, Television

The Boom, the Bust then flatline (normal) cycle (actually the flatline includes a slight rise from the bust and also includes smaller and weaker companies being weeded out)

We are seeing a similar effect in the stock market now, where some of the extremely overvalued stocks that plummeted during the bust portion of the cycle are making a slow steady comeback to reasonable levels. Example Yahoo stock was never worth the 240 per share it hit in Jan 2000 but has rebounded to 32 per share today from a low of 8 per share in October 2001 (it was also close to that price in November 2002)

Still that being said we (webmasters and companies) are responsible to a large degree for the adult on line entertainment industry's bust cycle or more so the quickness with which it happened and the delay of a slight rebound

There are MANY reasons for this (many good ones have been discussed here) and I feel we are still 9 - 18 months away from seeing any appreciable rebound - for those of us who will still be around

But we could still lose it all depending on the whims of Visa/Mastercard and when, if ever mass alternative acceptable and marketable payment options become available (I know checks with processed certain companies <ACHDEBIT is one> are a viable option but without 100% real time validation it's still not the yet payment solution we need)

[Nickatilynx]

One of my biggest and few regrets is I didn't study new market economies more - the history was all there - Industrial revolution, Auto Manufacturing, Radio, Television

The Boom, the Bust then flatline (normal) cycle (actually the flatline includes a slight rise from the bust and also includes smaller and weaker companies being weeded out)

We are seeing a similar effect in the stock market now, where some of the extremely overvalued stocks that plummeted during the bust portion of the cycle are making a slow steady comeback to reasonable levels. Example Yahoo stock was never worth the 240 per share it hit in Jan 2000 but has rebounded to 32 per share today from a low of 8 per share in October 2001 (it was also close to that price in November 2002)

Still that being said we (webmasters and companies) are responsible to a large degree for the adult on line entertainment industry's bust cycle or more so the quickness with which it happened and the delay of a slight rebound

There are MANY reasons for this (many good ones have been discussed here) and I feel we are still 9 - 18 months away from seeing any appreciable rebound - for those of us who will still be around

But we could still lose it all depending on the whims of Visa/Mastercard and when, if ever mass alternative acceptable and marketable payment options become available (I know checks with processed certain companies are a viable option but without 100% real time validation it's still not the yet payment solution we need)


DAMN!!!!

Longest pearl ever!

:)

[gregtx]

Hey Nick.. hows BC?


antoher note on "free content".. that as a sponsor you now also have to provide your webmasters with free promo content.. and you have to update that free content... as well... so now "joe" webmaster no longer needs to purchase any content from contnet providers... so once a content provider sells his content to every sponsor.. he is pretty much out of business.. thus you see the content fire sales as of late...

now the content you as a sponsor spent good money on.. is now on every free site and tgp... for free. so why join a site...

just anohter example of too much free shit...

[el pres]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2003, 10:40 AM

But we could still lose it all depending on the whims of Visa/Mastercard and when, if ever mass alternative acceptable and marketable payment options become available (I know checks with processed certain companies <ACHDEBIT is one> are a viable option but without 100% real time validation it's still not the yet payment solution we need)
SMS is huge in Europe and Asia, not sure about the US.
What’s the % of cellphone owners there?

In Europe its damn high, probably around 95% of computer users own a mobile phone
and use SMS all the time, so it’s a system they’re used of and feel safe with.

The price of the service is fixed at around $1-$1.50 per message and you can set up
the length of access your end, so you can bill per film, per day, whatever.

You can’t set up recurring with it, but it should increase premium site usage.
If people can look at 15-20 sites a month, then the amount of surfers looking to buy should increase,
as the lack of non US creditcard usage and scrubbing stops most non US surfers from joining a site anyway.

3rd party fees are still very high, so after paying the mobile networks and the gateway companies you end up with about 1/2 the billed amount, and you have to wait for the $$.

If the volume is there in adult, once a company gets established these fees should drop,
if not someone’s going to get extremely rich.



Last edited by el pres at Jun 26 2003, 02:05 PM

[cj]

Originally posted by Calculus@Jun 26 2003, 09:06 AM
Hey a positive and optimistic post from CJ, what happened, did you get fucked good last night? :bdance:
Good one Calculus!

Hell, if you were half as intelligent as you are funny, you wouldn't need to ask so many stupid questions! :okthumb:


Try rechanneling your energy ...

[cj]

Originally posted by gregtx@Jun 26 2003, 01:57 PM
Hey Nick.. hows BC?


antoher note on "free content".. that as a sponsor you now also have to provide your webmasters with free promo content.. and you have to update that free content... as well... so now "joe" webmaster no longer needs to purchase any content from contnet providers... so once a content provider sells his content to every sponsor.. he is pretty much out of business.. thus you see the content fire sales as of late...

now the content you as a sponsor spent good money on.. is now on every free site and tgp... for free. so why join a site...

just anohter example of too much free shit...
True, but a sponsor shouldn't be using content without a specific license from a content company which should mean the content company at least makes a bit extra off the content ...

I've wondered how many programs actually get a license for giving away tgp galleries ...

[LiL2Rich4u2]

Originally posted by OzKaNoz@Jun 24 2003, 01:00 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"
i have seen you post this line about 20 times.

Do you think its some secret?

Do you think nobody knows that?

The problem is that at this very point in time, reducing the free content will reduce your sales most likely.

And even if it wont, people dont want to chance it.

[Vick]

Originally posted by cj+Jun 26 2003, 06:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Jun 26 2003, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--gregtx@Jun 26 2003, 01:57 PM
Hey Nick.. hows BC?


antoher note on "free content".. that as a sponsor you now also have to provide your webmasters with free promo content.. and you have to update that free content... as well... so now "joe" webmaster no longer needs to purchase any content from contnet providers... so once a content provider sells his content to every sponsor.. he is pretty much out of business.. thus you see the content fire sales as of late...

now the content you as a sponsor spent good money on.. is now on every free site and tgp... for free. so why join a site...

just anohter example of too much free shit...
True, but a sponsor shouldn't be using content without a specific license from a content company which should mean the content company at least makes a bit extra off the content ...

I've wondered how many programs actually get a license for giving away tgp galleries ...[/b][/quote]
None - If I buy content (which I do often) I put the hosted galleries for webmasters in Cloud 9 Cash on domains that covered by the license agreement

e.g. I can put the content I bought on 10 domains one of those is a domain that is used for the hosted galleries program - traffic is sent by webmasters in the program and tracked through the gallery to the paysites

[Vick]

Originally posted by LiL2Rich4u2+Jun 26 2003, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LiL2Rich4u2 @ Jun 26 2003, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--OzKaNoz@Jun 24 2003, 01:00 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
"When the amount of free porn is reduced, sales will go up"
i have seen you post this line about 20 times.

Do you think its some secret?

Do you think nobody knows that?

The problem is that at this very point in time, reducing the free content will reduce your sales most likely.[/b][/quote]
Can you please explain your last statement?

Is your rational that by having less content on your free sites you'll get less traffic - not qualify for link lists and TGPing?

[sarettah]

Originally posted by LiL2Rich4u2@Jun 26 2003, 08:05 PM
The problem is that at this very point in time, reducing the free content will reduce your sales most likely.

And even if it wont, people dont want to chance it.
If Johnnie jumped off the brooklyn bridge would you too ???

:yowsa:

[cj]

Originally posted by Vick@Jun 26 2003, 08:57 PM
None - If I buy content (which I do often) I put the hosted galleries for webmasters in Cloud 9 Cash on domains that covered by the license agreement

e.g. I can put the content I bought on 10 domains one of those is a domain that is used for the hosted galleries program - traffic is sent by webmasters in the program and tracked through the gallery to the paysites
wow

that's ....... really fucking cool

not for content companies but ... i guess there is a way around every rule!

/me starts building hosted galleries

[Carrie]

Originally posted by el pres@Jun 26 2003, 02:02 PM
SMS is huge in Europe and Asia, not sure about the US.
What’s the % of cellphone owners there?
The %age of cellphone users is sky-high, but SMS isn't here yet.
Someone stick a fork in the FCC and see if they're done looking down their noses at that, will ya?

[Carrie]

Aw hell folks, it's everyone... no particular portion of the industry or type of webmaster to blame.
Everyone was greedy, they wanted the money, they wanted the power, they wanted the status... so "fuck the industry as a whole as long as I'm gettin' some and I'm gettin' it out there before my competitors" was the mob rule.

Too much free porn?

Tell the TGP owners and LL owners that we're supposed to be *selling to* the surfer, not *giving to* the surfer, and get them to allow us to actually advertise on our pages.

Tell the sponsor programs to stop giving out hardcore, insertion, cumshot content for free to its webmasters. When the sponsor *gives* it away, they devalue it and therefore the webmaster thinks it's okay to *give* away. If the webmasters had to *pay* for hardcore content to use in their sites and galleries, they'd be more apt to make sure it was going to pay off (like putting it behind an AVS or ASD or whatever the fuck it's called these days).

Tell the content providers to stop acting like fucking "follow the leader" idiots and doing the same thing to their section of the industry that TGPs did to this one. Why all the fire sales? Because everyone's giving the fucking content away!! I haven't had to buy content in months unless I was looking for something very specific, and the free shit that's being given away each week is top-quality, crystal clear, high-resolution stuff. Sets that you would've been paying at least $50 for a year ago - and they're giving away 4 and 5 of 'em at a damn time.

Tell the sponsors to quit giving pre-built galleries and free sites (jesus christ you don't even have to build anything anymore) to people who don't know what to do with it. Set a minimum traffic level for folks who want access to the pre-built stuff. That way you don't have Joe Schmoe signing up, taking 300 pre-built galleries and scattering them all over his free host, then leaving the business pissed off from no sales a month later and leaving those 4,500 free pics floating around out there. Give these tools to the people who know how to use them and who have the traffic to prove it.

And for god's sake, someone please tell the fat pipes to raise the bandwidth prices again so some of these cheating motherfuckers with the redirecting shit and spamming will find it too expensive to continue with their bullshit.

*kicks soapbox back to the middle of the circle*

[cj]

:wnw:
you should stop by and grab the soapbox more often!


Although everything you said makes sense, nobody is going to be the first one to do any of those things ... which is why the last 12 months have been stagnant in the industry ... hardly anything major feels like its changed, and yet behind the scenes, we have had some of the biggest changes ever ...

I don't think we've seen the full effect of the cc processing issues yet, and THAT is what controls the value of a signup - which at the end of the day is the entire equation to the business model of our industry.

I wish we could fast forward to 2004 and grab some clues
:rolleyes:

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by cj@Jun 28 2003, 01:31 AM


I wish we could fast forward to 2004 and grab some clues
:rolleyes:
I dunno, that thing we discussed, could change a small bit of the industry...for us anyways....LOL

[cj]

Originally posted by SykkBoy+Jun 28 2003, 02:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SykkBoy @ Jun 28 2003, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--cj@Jun 28 2003, 01:31 AM


I wish we could fast forward to 2004 and grab some clues
:rolleyes:
I dunno, that thing we discussed, could change a small bit of the industry...for us anyways....LOL[/b][/quote]
yeah if i could ever finish the damn thing!!

it keeps growing bigger ;-(



lol
that's funny ... 'keeps growing bigger' with a sad face
doesn't seem to go together

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Timon@Jun 25 2003, 12:27 AM
I wish the Communications Decency Act hadn't failed ;-(
me too.

[dantheman]

carrie, very good post! :rokk:

[Vlad]

yeah , indeed very nice post , and I'm 100% agree with OzKaNoz , the newbies is not a problem here , we just should face the fact what killing our industry , however we can`t change something now , too late.

[cj]

Originally posted by Vlad@Jun 28 2003, 09:30 AM
yeah , indeed very nice post , and I'm 100% agree with OzKaNoz , the newbies is not a problem here , we just should face the fact what killing our industry , however we can`t change something now , too late.
Who actually said that newbies were killing the biz?! i don't remember anyone saying that ... newbies are too stupid to kill the biz, most of them are completely harmless!

:P

[Vlad]

Originally posted by cj+Jun 28 2003, 06:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Jun 28 2003, 06:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Vlad@Jun 28 2003, 09:30 AM
yeah , indeed very nice post , and I'm 100% agree with OzKaNoz , the newbies is not a problem here , we just should face the fact what killing our industry , however we can`t change something now , too late.
Who actually said that newbies were killing the biz?! i don't remember anyone saying that ... newbies are too stupid to kill the biz, most of them are completely harmless!

:P[/b][/quote]
I didn`t said newbies killing the biz :blink:
free porn is tha problem :stout:

[sarettah]

Who actually said that newbies were killing the biz?! i don't remember anyone saying that ... newbies are too stupid to kill the biz, most of them are completely harmless!
:P


It's not the newbies that are the problem.
The problem is the hugh amounts of free porn on the internet.
Oz
Who the fuck do you think put up all the free porn?!??!

the fucking newbies!!! that's who! all the idiots who jumped in after the gold rush was over so they could run cool sites with free porn for their chat buddies!!

do you see anyone on oprano talking about how many free movies they can put in their tgp sites?!!?!??! or asking for 'gallery critique'?!??!?!





Last edited by sarettah at Jun 30 2003, 09:38 AM

[cj]

sarettah, i meant 'prior to this thread' ... ie, what was the purpose of the thread, who said it that made this thread defending newbies start

fuck, that didn't make sense either

:unsure:

[sarettah]

Originally posted by cj@Jun 30 2003, 07:16 PM
sarettah, i meant 'prior to this thread' ... ie, what was the purpose of the thread, who said it that made this thread defending newbies start

fuck, that didn't make sense either

:unsure:
lololol......

I don't know who ever saidit CJ, I actually have never really seen "newbies" blamed for the business ills of the adult net...

From day one I always heard the biggest problem was too much free porn out there... :)

But, Oz started the thread with the premise that someone was blaming the newbies, so lets jump his ass on that one....

Ozkanoz... Like CJ said... Who the fuck is blaming the newbies !!!!!

:yowsa:

[gonzo]

My my... the difference a few years can make.

[gonzo]

The veterans of the industry are setting the rules and they are unfortunately exacerbating the problem rather than trying to solve it.



This is a 4 year old :-pearl:

[Forest]

i have to agree with the original post

free post has killed thr golden goose

but i dont see any way to get rid of free porn with big tgps being worth as much as they are

[gonzo]

i have to agree with the original post

free post has killed thr golden goose

but i dont see any way to get rid of free porn with big tgps being worth as much as they are
TGPs are yesterdays news.

[Jace]

tgp's are devaluing in size and price every day

in the past week alone I have had 3 HUGE tgp guys come to me and talk about how they are needing to diversify because tgp sales and traffic keep spiraling down

these aren't your newbie submitters either, these are guys that spend upwards of $2k a week on spots

[SabrinaDeep]

This is so far the best thread i have ever read in any forums. And thumbs up to you guys for your out of the chorus and straight to the point statements.

Free content is definetely and obviously a problem. Unfortunately, few sponsors would have the courage to do something about it. I might be one of those cutting free content very soon, but this is another matter. Not here to talk about me.

But i would like to add my silly contribution to the discussion, if you don't mind. Given that the amount of free content around is a huge problem, i would not underestimate something that in my opinion is a bigger problem: free downloadable content.

Since we are all aware of the fact that it is practically impossible to go backwords to the times when free content was limited, i think that we could well do something about not making it downloadable. You can see a pic or a video at that website, but you cannot download it. If you want to download it, you pay a little fee for each piece you download, like you do on legit mp3 sites. This wouldn' t cut off the torrents, the cheaters and stuff of course, but if the big TGPs, the sponsors, the NATS and CCBills would start adopting this trend, i am sure that there would be much more money for everybody by the day. And it would be very very easy to implement, with no crazy investment for rethinking the system. Two lines of code on each web page with free content and a buy-it-now button on the big picture or video page for the pages where the content is and a new payment option for buying a 10 cents pic or a 20 cents promo video by the payment processors.

Maybe i just woke up hangover, but i think that this could be a good medication, althought not the cure for sure.

[gonzo]

This is so far the best thread i have ever read in any forums. And thumbs up to you guys for your out of the chorus and straight to the point statements.

Free content is definetely and obviously a problem. Unfortunately, few sponsors would have the courage to do something about it. I might be one of those cutting free content very soon, but this is another matter. Not here to talk about me.

But i would like to add my silly contribution to the discussion, if you don't mind. Given that the amount of free content around is a huge problem, i would not underestimate something that in my opinion is a bigger problem: free downloadable content.

Since we are all aware of the fact that it is practically impossible to go backwords to the times when free content was limited, i think that we could well do something about not making it downloadable. You can see a pic or a video at that website, but you cannot download it. If you want to download it, you pay a little fee for each piece you download, like you do on legit mp3 sites. This wouldn' t cut off the torrents, the cheaters and stuff of course, but if the big TGPs, the sponsors, the NATS and CCBills would start adopting this trend, i am sure that there would be much more money for everybody by the day. And it would be very very easy to implement, with no crazy investment for rethinking the system. Two lines of code on each web page with free content and a buy-it-now button on the big picture or video page for the pages where the content is and a new payment option for buying a 10 cents pic or a 20 cents promo video by the payment processors.

Maybe i just woke up hangover, but i think that this could be a good medication, althought not the cure for sure.

Sabrina. If you have content on the web and they want to download it they will find a way to steal it. Spiders, scrapers etc. Ive heard many Russian surfers state if its on the web then its meant to be stolen.

The "tokens" or micro transaction idea has been tested several times over not done very well.

[Hell Puppy]

There's a simple truth that has always applied going back as far as electronic commerce of any form has been around...and even applied to other things such as copy protection on CD's.

You CANT force anyone to buy anything. If someone is hell bent on not paying, they'll either steal it or do without. Never will you hear them say "oh, ok, you got me, your copy protection rules, here's my money!". Just doesn't happen...or if it does, it's a tiny percentage.

It seems everytime we have a new form of media we have to go thru this learning curve. Companies get their panties in a twist because someone is getting some for free. Then they slap copy protection and other things on it which does nothing but piss off the people who are actually paying money for it.

Spend your time giving your paying customers what they want instead of feuding with people who'll never pay you a dime. And never do anything to fight the thieves that is at the expense of costing you paying customers. It'll all work out in the end.

There's a balance you have to strike to not be robbed blind, but also not
hinder your paying customers.

[SabrinaDeep]

Sabrina. If you have content on the web and they want to download it they will find a way to steal it. Spiders, scrapers etc. Ive heard many Russian surfers state if its on the web then its meant to be stolen.

The "tokens" or micro transaction idea has been tested several times over not done very well.

I obvuiously did not know about the tokens....i'm a newby at the end of the day eheheh. But about stealing i partially disagree with you. Yes, people will always steal. But inviting the robber to steal is worse, isn't it? You can lock free content from being downloaded and given the average skills of the average surfer, you are going to cut a lot of stealing and free circulation of the free material. The technology for blocking users from downloading free pictures and just let them watch the pics is there. I understand that it's hard to start doing something, but we can! And if we don't, threads like this one will be more and more frequent. I have nothing to teach to anybody and yes, once again i'm a newby in the sponsors world; but i'm not so stupid to not understand that something went wrong in the porn industry online. It's against any marketing rule to offer 100$ per signup on a 29$ signup that you don't know if it's gonna be rebilled. Cross selling...fair enough...and after that? It's like supermarkets saga...they screwed all the small shops, they have screwed the genuinity of the groceries. You get bigger, greener, shinier apples, but do they tast as good? Nope. The clients start feeling uncomfortable about supermarkets, but they have got so much power that it is hard to get rid of them in favour of small, local shops again. That might work (but i'm not sure for how longer) with food, because you need to eat, but about porn? Are we sure that if we don't start doing something for giving genuinity back to users and top protect ourself at the same time, they are not gonna leave us totally down, one day? I think that the big problem with the porn industry today is to pretend to do thing because that's what consumers want, while in any other mainstream industry it is the industry making the rules and convincing the consumer that the product is good. think of McDonald, just to make a stupid example. Consumers want free content because we gave it to them. And yes, if you give me a free can of coke, i don't need to go and buy it, do i? We should start auto*-regulating ourself, instead of tring to screw each other. But i'm just dreaming for sure.

Well, if you read all that you must be really pissed tonight ahahah.

Love and biz prosperity to everybody!

[SabrinaDeep]

There's a simple truth that has always applied going back as far as electronic commerce of any form has been around...and even applied to other things such as copy protection on CD's.

You CANT force anyone to buy anything. If someone is hell bent on not paying, they'll either steal it or do without. Never will you hear them say "oh, ok, you got me, your copy protection rules, here's my money!". Just doesn't happen...or if it does, it's a tiny percentage.

It seems everytime we have a new form of media we have to go thru this learning curve. Companies get their panties in a twist because someone is getting some for free. Then they slap copy protection and other things on it which does nothing but piss off the people who are actually paying money for it.

Spend your time giving your paying customers what they want instead of feuding with people who'll never pay you a dime. And never do anything to fight the thieves that is at the expense of costing you paying customers. It'll all work out in the end.

There's a balance you have to strike to not be robbed blind, but also not
hinder your paying customers.


Hell, forgive me, but you cannot compare a mainstream CD or DVD with online porn. I can find the complete content of Raven Riley's members area for free, today and her only revenue come exactly from that content. There must be something wrong when you have free access to the car park of a car dealer and the keys are inserted in the lock. I was reading of someone complaining about the raising monthly membership prices: wouldn't you raise the price of your cars if you bought and paid for 20 of them and 18 went stolen? Wouldn't you try to compensate your loss trying to sell the two cars left for a higher price? Don't you think that giving away less free content, we could lower the prices, having more customers and therefore making more money? We make the market, not the users. If we are unhappy, it's just our fault. If you don't like it, change it! My 2 cents

[gonzo]

Go to the trouble of locking down your content with DRM protection and report back to me again this time next year.

Ill give you a tip. Members joining your site will HATE it and you will feel it in your pocket book.

[Hell Puppy]

Hell, forgive me, but you cannot compare a mainstream CD or DVD with online porn. I can find the complete content of Raven Riley's members area for free, today and her only revenue come exactly from that content. There must be something wrong when you have free access to the car park of a car dealer and the keys are inserted in the lock. I was reading of someone complaining about the raising monthly membership prices: wouldn't you raise the price of your cars if you bought and paid for 20 of them and 18 went stolen? Wouldn't you try to compensate your loss trying to sell the two cars left for a higher price? Don't you think that giving away less free content, we could lower the prices, having more customers and therefore making more money? We make the market, not the users. If we are unhappy, it's just our fault. If you don't like it, change it! My 2 cents

The analogies wont work. But the bottom line is still take care of your paying customers and dont punish them just because some people steal content. There are many reasonable things you can do that will keep losses to a minimum with no impact to your paying customers.

I'm talking basic stuff like blocking brute password attacks, totally blocking IPs from countries that you know will never pass a credit card scrub, etc.

[SabrinaDeep]

I was talking about free content, guys, not about my members area content.

[Hell Puppy]

I was talking about free content, guys, not about my members area content.

Why would you ever give hardcore away for free?

I rarely give away a nipple.

[softball]

I used to get upset about free content until I realized it is kind of like getting upset with the weather. You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but it is a fact of life. Deal with it. You either sink or swim in the content cesspool. I prefer the latter. There is only one defense against free content. It is the same defense against rising fuel prices. Make more money. Howling at the moon does nothing. I should know.

[Hell Puppy]

I used to get upset about free content until I realized it is kind of like getting upset with the weather. You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but it is a fact of life. Deal with it. You either sink or swim in the content cesspool. I prefer the latter. There is only one defense against free content. It is the same defense against rising fuel prices. Make more money. Howling at the moon does nothing. I should know.

I agree with that, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna give my own shit away just to have it smeared all over TGP's.

I give galleries away, but my galleries tease and make the user want more. And yeah, I know there are TGP's out there that wont post shit unless you have 20+ pictures showing shots that are so high-res a good gynecologist could perform a full examination. And nothing I can do about that, but I'm not going to help him feed all those surfers all that free content by supplying him with mine.

[softball]

I agree with that, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna give my own shit away just to have it smeared all over TGP's.

I give galleries away, but my galleries tease and make the user want more. And yeah, I know there are TGP's out there that wont post shit unless you have 20+ pictures showing shots that are so high-res a good gynecologist could perform a full examination. And nothing I can do about that, but I'm not going to help him feed all those surfers all that free content by supplying him with mine.
I never give away anything unless I think it will produce revenue. Why else are we here. It ain't for the naked women. Well I guess it kind of is, but that is just a perque.