What is Lee Noga selling now?

[Mike AI]

Over 8 months of development, and we are ready to launch some technology that hopefully will be the pitbull our industry needs to reduce the money that is made by unethical webmasters.

We also understand sponsors don't always know where their traffic is coming from, and we can locate your banners and scrub the site for alerts etc.

Its complex, but do you think this will help our present problems?

Sniffy our pitbull was developed to sniff websites and do a deep scrub of affliliate programs, link lists, search engines etc. He checks everything as well as downloads all the images, hashes them and records the fingerprint in a database.

We are able to scrub sponsor programs based on any triggers they want or we use the triggers we know of [lolita, underage, young etc].

The ASACP and our technology have come to an agreement to work together since this technology has so many applications.

Sponsors, do you think this type of service has value to you to have a 3rd party agency sniffing your affiliates and policing their websites on a monthly fee basis?

We have other modules that cross reference this database, and we have taken on the huge task of downloading every image we can find on the net that is adult, to date we have over 5 million in our database.

Our solution to combatting unethical content/websites, is both a high tech and a low tech solution. The low tech side is a human reviewing the images on the webmasters site, as our system recognizes the images we never have to validate them again, so over time we will have less and less to view.

If a webmaster turns on some unethical content during certain times of the week and reverts it back to legit content, we know about it.

Nothing like this has been developed and we feel tools should be developed within our industry.

Any thoughts? Does this have value? If you were a sponsor would you pay a monthly feel for this police dog, we loving call "Sniffy"?

[Mike AI]

Then she goes on to say....

Everyone hates the thought of CP and hates the thought they get money from our industry, well we decided we could do something about this.

Now, we have to see if the industry supports our police dog.



Well I read this, and read responses and I have a definate opinion on this product. I am curious if I am the only one....

What is your opinion?

[Timon]

IMHO such tools can save you hours of time every day as well as your merchant account. I have had similar features implemented in my revenue proggies since 1998 and basically when someone does something that's against our T&C the server emails us a warning so we can terminate the account. Credit card fraud is particularly easy to spot.

It catches about 97% of all cheaters within 24 hours and it's a lot more reliable than hiring staff to do it because more often than not the staff doesn't give a fuck if you lose your shirt.

The drawback is that such tools make you lazy and if someone is cheating in a way that your sniffer bot doesn't catch he may get away with it for a long time.

I think if Lee is going to charge webmasters for it though her spider bot should also focus on carders and hitbotters. In most cases I don't think many webmasters will be interested in paying for something unless it saves or makes them money.

[Mike AI]

Timon, if you check out the thread, you will see that this has nothing to do with fraud, or carding or things like that.... I think it is entirely based on a search for CP....

Sounds like you have the real issues worked out, maybe you should develop it for other webmasters can use. I know I would be interested in it!

[cj]

Mike, where is the thread this came from?

[Timon]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jun 11 2003, 01:17 AM
Timon, if you check out the thread, you will see that this has nothing to do with fraud, or carding or things like that.... I think it is entirely based on a search for CP....

Well that's very noble of her but she can spider the web for KP without charging paysites for it ;-)

[Timon]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jun 11 2003, 01:17 AM
Sounds like you have the real issues worked out, maybe you should develop it for other webmasters can use. I know I would be interested in it!
Not a bad idea, I just might do that.

[Mike AI]

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.p...threadid=141624 (http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141624)

Sorry CJ.....

Pretty long thread....

And yes Timon, that is the first thing I thought about after reading parts of the thread, she is playing the CP to try and make some money. PRetty dissapointing.... why not just give it away, cause beleive me I know no one who will buy it!

Oh and Timon, I woudl work with you as a beta tester for your new product!! :D

[Mike AI]

Oh and I wonder how will this help with video? Seems like its only set up to find JPGs maybe GIF formats....

Some of the people bring up good points, though some seem to be a little paranoid ( which I guess is smart, I would not let them on my servers, just to be safe)

[Timon]

Too much text in that thread ;-(

It would be more appropriate to ask for donations, and build a page with credits for donors, like UAS used to do back in the day.

Not sure if that would work either but certainly more appropriate.

[Mike AI]

Timon, you think if I buy Sniffy, that Lee would throw in the Zip Code list for free???

HAHAHAHA :D :P :blink:

I love you Lee.... Timon has the right idea, make a product like he recomends, throw in the CP in too so webmasters can feel good about themsleves, then come back and sell it!

[JR]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jun 10 2003, 10:34 PM
PRetty dissapointing.... why not just give it away, cause beleive me I know no one who will buy it!

Oh and Timon, I woudl work with you as a beta tester for your new product!! :D
why would you be dissapointed? a bitter person, known to thrive on confrontation, provocation, conflict and controversy... now wants to be a policeman.

sounds like a bad idea.

She is a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be a Catholic nun. If that does not scream "train wreck of a life" i dont know what does.

[JR]

also, if there are humans reviewing content and they come across what they believe to be CP... say on someones TGP site... wouldn't they be required to report it immediately to the law regardless of the circumstances?

John Ashcroft will now be reveiwing your content.
sounds like a great idea.

We are not about hassling webmasters and intellectual property right issues.

If you want to use 18 year olds as content, more power to you. But if you market lolita all over your site and hope your content is viewed as under 18, more power to me :-)

On your other point about trying to block. Yes, a webmaster could try to block us, and of course that would just raise our suspicions as why someone would want to hide.

[Forest]

Originally posted by JR@Jun 10 2003, 10:49 PM

She is a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be a Catholic nun. If that does not scream "train wreck of a life" i dont know what does.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

:wnw: :okthumb:

[sarettah]

I played at gfy yesterday and participated pretty heavily in that thread.

There are 2 versions they are pushing sniffyjr and sniffysr. Sniffyjr is being "given" to asacp. Sniffysr would be a "service" sold to sponsors to help keep their affiliates in line.

The ASACP version would be pointed at just CP.

The commercial version would be pointed at various parameters of the sponsors choosing.

And I did raise the issue that no matter how much they wrapped it in righteousness and morality it was still a commercial venture designed to make them money.

[Winetalk.com]

I think this is a bullshit product...

[sarettah]

As far as I could tell, in reality it is nothing more than a deep search tool.

Giving it to asacp is cool, no problem with that and I fully support any efforts to go after CP and support ASACP's efforts in that regards.

But you are right on this Serge, this is pretty much a bullshit solution more designed to make the Sponsor big brother over affiliates then to find illegal content.

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by JR@Jun 11 2003, 01:49 AM
She is a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be a Catholic nun. If that does not scream "train wreck of a life" i dont know what does.
So what am I? lol
I'm a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be an indian chief. :bjump:

[Timon]

We are all God's children, open your heart to the Lord and he shall forgive you!

[Dianna Vesta]

It’s seems very complicated and I’m not sure I would find any value in this at all. When I choose affiliates I look at so many other things. Besides today with technology I won’t even try to keep up or track what everyone else is doing.

Video is the big thing now. I don’t know how in the hell it would be able to do video.

Millions of images, lots of data processing, human reviewing…. It’s a big weave that’s bound to get knots in it.

[Forest]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta+Jun 11 2003, 07:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dianna Vesta @ Jun 11 2003, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--JR@Jun 11 2003, 01:49 AM
She is a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be a Catholic nun. If that does not scream "train wreck of a life" i dont know what does.
So what am I? lol
I'm a lesbian woman in porn who wants to be an indian chief. :bjump:[/b][/quote]
indian chief is ok



:wnw:

[Nickatilynx]

I think this is a bullshit product...

I agree.

[LeeNoga]

http://www.leenoga.com/babynoga.gif - We having fun yet? LOL.



Last edited by LeeNoga at Jun 11 2003, 09:43 AM

[Nickatilynx]

Hey Lee,

Why not argue your case.....

don't you stand behyind this product.

I and many others, can be swayed by reasoned argument :)

[Mike AI]

Nick, I am hurt that Lee did not come to Oprano to make a post about her product.... Guess we are not good enough.

[Nickatilynx]

We are haemorroids on the asshole of the Internet,Mike. :(

[Mike AI]

Damn that explains that itching sensation....

Can you check for me :moon:

[Nickatilynx]

Mike we both know assholes when we see them LOL

Use a mirror ;-)))))

[Nickatilynx]

Seriously though,Lee......

If I was sending traffic through a link that said...

"These images may be illegal in your area to view.These girls are young"

Would you detect that?

[LeeNoga]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jun 11 2003, 09:45 AM
Hey Lee,

Why not argue your case.....

don't you stand behyind this product.

I and many others, can be swayed by reasoned argument :)
Hi'ya Nick,

It has been over 20 hours of fire on GFY, and we had no idea it would be so intense.

We developed the product and at least ASACP wants a subset of it, that alone made it worth it. Matter of fact DJ is on the phone with Joan Irvine as we speak. We have had multiple talks with Gary Kremen who was in the loop etc...

But we are not out trying to sell it per se door to door', we are making it available and adaptable to the needs of those that use it. If people like it fine, if not fine.

We are not exactly quitting our day jobs over Sniffy.

The criteria for the scrub will be determined by the client. When Lightspeed came out saying they use a script, and Lens adopted it the industry heckled more was needed than a URL sniffer. We of course monitored this behavior my Adult.com and Lightspeed, and thats about when we came out of development.

So we have this "Sniffer" but if it has no value its pointless. If it does, we develop onward. But, SniffyJr. is going to ASACP under the FBI umbrella and we want nothing to do with screening the CP images unless they cast a net over the entire Sniffy concept.

Our contribution to ASACP is free, money was not a motivator. But when we saw where some said we needed more "Sniff" we felt we could do this service.

Most important point is, this program is optional, you have choice, it by no means is a standard the industry should cast a net over and adopt as policy.

I am not going to re-hash the discussion found on GFY, now on page 2, but I do hope to place some perspective on this subject.

[LeeNoga]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jun 11 2003, 09:46 AM
Nick, I am hurt that Lee did not come to Oprano to make a post about her product.... Guess we are not good enough.
MikeAI is not that Oprano is good enough, Oprano has more solid webmasters than all the noise on GFY.

Its hard for them to participate in a thread that is not one of, "Would you hit her", "My dog puked up lottery ticket"....

But to us it was a litmus test, we put ourselves in harms way and really given the nature of that place, the natives were not all that restless.

Despite trying to address what we could so as not to be accused of "tap dancing", we were still accused.

It does not matter what the industry thinks, if we want to do it, we can, but its pointless to resource a project [need human image reviewers] if there is no need for this.

We admit this is a beginning point, we would hope it would attract others that could take this concept and improve it. We are not a solution, we are the beginning of the means to come to push back and give sponsors a way to identify business within their affiliate programs they want to dis-associate from.

So many have lost control over where their banners are. Some affiliate programs only ask their affiliate for one URL when they sign up, and often times that URL is not working.

We have the ability to cross reference databases, and identify where banners are located, if the sponsor really wants to know. Some don't want them on passwords sites, warez or celebs...

We do not do anything but turn over information red flagged based on the sponsors criteria, what they do with this, is their business, we are not here to pass judgements.

The human element is important so as to not report false positives based on word matches. The service has to be fee based to cover the costs of the check and balance systems.

Now that the pot shots are over, it will come down to Sniffy running in the hands of some sponsors who can then tell if this has any value. We already have been offered places to cut Sniffy loose.

Alot of refinement is ahead, and alot of issues too, but at least we are trying, and for that I don't mind being damned :-)

[LeeNoga]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jun 10 2003, 10:49 PM
Timon, you think if I buy Sniffy, that Lee would throw in the Zip Code list for free???

HAHAHAHA :D :P :blink:

I love you Lee.... Timon has the right idea, make a product like he recomends, throw in the CP in too so webmasters can feel good about themsleves, then come back and sell it!
MikieAI, we can develop anything, and would love to develop a suite of tools for sponsors.

But.

We do not have the background on detecting fraud to combat the man hours via automation. IF we knew what it took, we could do it.

But sounds as if Timon is gonna do it, so NO free zipcode list for you!

LOL, I cannot even find the zipcode list I did I license :(.

BUT, I did find the Sniffy graphics we used for a search engine in 1998, and we have a gent who has donated his graphic services to develop Sniffy.com.

GFY was a good thing, we can use that info in that thread as our development FAQ's :-)



Last edited by LeeNoga at Jun 11 2003, 11:50 AM

[LeeNoga]

Where is all the action? I caught a nap waiting for responses.

Anyhoo, will check back later. GFY would have buried me in this time frame :-)

[Mike AI]

Lee, I think you are onto something, the CP is a nice bonus, but if you could automate a system to track thieves, con artists, carders, and other people who hurt programs - this would be invaluable....

You should get with Timon, maybe you can get together put out a product and market it.....

[LeeNoga]

Thanks Mike, we all agree tools of all sorts would be a plus for this business :-)

[Mike AI]

Well hopefully you will develop some of these tools for sale to webmasters....

[cj]

Originally posted by LeeNoga+Jun 11 2003, 02:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LeeNoga @ Jun 11 2003, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Jun 11 2003, 09:46 AM
Nick, I am hurt that Lee did not come to Oprano to make a post about her product.... Guess we are not good enough.
MikeAI is not that Oprano is good enough, Oprano has more solid webmasters than all the noise on GFY.

Its hard for them to participate in a thread that is not one of, "Would you hit her", "My dog puked up lottery ticket"....

But to us it was a litmus test, we put ourselves in harms way and really given the nature of that place, the natives were not all that restless.

Despite trying to address what we could so as not to be accused of "tap dancing", we were still accused.[/b][/quote]
Lee, how can gfy webmasters even comprehend this product? isn't it for paysite owners and affiliate programs? showing it to the tgp crowd first isn't exactly a good test of its potential in the market. Of course they didn't ask any hard questions, its bong-o-clock!

Oprano webmasters would have asked you the right questions for your faq, but you keep dissing us pimps ... that gives us the shiznits :biglaugh:

It does not matter what the industry thinks, if we want to do it, we can, but its pointless to resource a project [need human image reviewers] if there is no need for this.

It doesn't matter what the industry thinks except that no one will buy it if they don't think its a good product ...


We admit this is a beginning point, we would hope it would attract others that could take this concept and improve it. We are not a solution, we are the beginning of the means to come to push back and give sponsors a way to identify business within their affiliate programs they want to dis-associate from.

I'm confused about the part where a human, not hired by my business, with priorities other than the success of my business in mind, gets to decide what my webmasters can and can't do ... You mentioned that the paysite owner can choose what the 'human' filters, but you are still open to human judgement based on that persons moral definition.

So many have lost control over where their banners are. Some affiliate programs only ask their affiliate for one URL when they sign up, and often times that URL is not working.

I had assumed that big webmaster programs would track the referring url so that this isn't the case ... I have an entire harddrive of backups of my logs showing this info so i can browse it if i need to ... i'm confused as to who the target audience is ...

We do not do anything but turn over information red flagged based on the sponsors criteria, what they do with this, is their business, we are not here to pass judgements.

Won't that put you in the firing line should this industry come under fire? I wouldn't want a third party talking on my behalf about my business ...

I'm looking forward to hearing some feedback from sponsors who are using ... just try to post it on oprano so that you don't hurt our feelings anymore :P

[LeeNoga]

Hey'a CJ,

The data we have is 32 character hash strings, and the URL that contained the image that we hashed, we do not have the images per se' once they are verified.

For this data to be used for other than its intentions, one would have to give us the image so we could get the hash and see where it lies on the web.

Your right GFY is a bunch of young TGP folk and prolly the very same who are part of our industry problem.

We love developing toys, got a great team, and if the industry don't want this "Sniffy" to evaluate their affiliate program, thats fine. We still were able to develop something to help the ASACP.

I want to talk to some folks who can give us some background on methods used to detect CC earlier to reduce their risks with CC companies.

Is this issue of the most value to programs now? If we could develop tools what areas are priority?

Note, I am asking this question here :-)

[LeeNoga]

Question:

How about if we target Sniffy for the CC companies? If we can assist them, that should hit the CP in the wallet, er least dent it.

Maybe at the sponsor level the webbies will put heat on them and walk away from their affiliate programs. Don't want to place sponsors in the spot where they have to choose between moral responsibility and business.

Any thoughts? KimmyKim? CJ? MIkieAI? Timon?

[cj]

you might be onto something with the cc company idea ... for cc companies to be able to spider all of their clients and police them would be great ...

only problem is, why would they bother when they don't really get into any trouble for allowing illegal material on their network? you are asking for companies to voluntarily spend money and time for the good of the internet ... i know i'm not that generous ;-)

As far as the fraud side goes ... we use a really good system which has been programmed by the swoit guys, based on 6 years of running extremely large paysite programs with a high level of fraud ... the system allows us to see a page for each webmaster which contains a STACK of information about their signups, right down to usernames of the members that signed up under their account, plus referring urls' for every single click that enters the account ...

I am struggling to see who your target audience is for this product, and honestly i'm still confused as to what it does ... can it help me? how? what do i have to do to set it up?

[Timon]

Hey Lee what's up?

Sorry I am lazy and read long posts only in a diagonal line from upper left corner down to the lower right corner, so my question may have been addressed already.

AFAIK, unless you're a law enforcement officer assigned to a KP case it's illegal to look at KP no matter how good your intentions are, I am sure you've heard news stories of writers who claim they were looking at KP sites for research purposes and ended up having their reputation destroyed for being publicly arrested as a KP-er.

Have you addressed the legality of having a team of civilians scouring the web for KP?



Last edited by Timon at Jun 13 2003, 12:58 AM

[Timon]

As far as selling this product to paysite owners, I don't think many people will be interested in paying for this unless it earns them money or saves them money. We all keep referrers for every hit we receive and most of us verify each page that is sending traffic to our sites so I think we're basically doing these things already.

I don't think any paysite operators are too concerned about hostility from KP peddling webbies but you would really need to add some value for any paysite owner to be interested.

Selling this to CC-processors is probably a much better idea.

And if it's really good then maybe the FBI would be interested, unless they already have a similar tool ;-)

[cj]

great minds ....

:okthumb:

[*KK*]

Originally posted by LeeNoga@Jun 12 2003, 08:08 AM
Question:

How about if we target Sniffy for the CC companies? If we can assist them, that should hit the CP in the wallet, er least dent it.

Maybe at the sponsor level the webbies will put heat on them and walk away from their affiliate programs. Don't want to place sponsors in the spot where they have to choose between moral responsibility and business.

Any thoughts? KimmyKim? CJ? MIkieAI? Timon?
Nope, I think I asked all my questions on the young kids board, I'll just live with the answers and non answers that I got over there.

I don't see much point in it to be honest. This proliferation of so-called kp'ing resellers who are sending traffic to sponsors can't be doing too well since the sponsors tours plainly disabuse the surfer of the hope of finding something they shouldn't, at least on tours processed in the US, Visa's brand imaging pretty much took out anything that most people find to be even mildly objectionable and quite a bit that really didn't matter either.

Those that are truly pushing what the law defines as kp are generally offshore and out of the reach of most law, unless it's a concerted multi country effort like we occasionally see.

So the usefulness of the product, especially as a paid service, doesn't really strike me.

I could be wrong though, it happens at least once a day.

[LeeNoga]

Originally posted by Timon@Jun 12 2003, 09:58 PM
Have you addressed the legality of having a team of civilians scouring the web for KP?
Hi Timon :-)

We have been asked to a meeting at the end of the month with the FBI and ASACP in LA, we are attending.

Your 100% right, if we did not have a cast net thrown over us we to would crash and burn over KP charges most likely.

[LeeNoga]

You could be right KK, maybe this may work maybe not. Maybe it will be enough of a shot in the arm that others think about other means to combat KP.

What questions of yours were asked that went un-answered. You have to admit we had alot coming our way at a pace in that GFY thread. We did our best to answer the frenzy. It was alot to respond to by DJ and myself only but we put in over 20 hours into that thread, so tap dancing was not our exit strategy. If we were not comprehensive totally in a response most likely it was just fatigue.

What were your questions that went un-answered?

SO you think the CC processors would see no value in this screening practice?

[*KK*]

Originally posted by LeeNoga@Jun 13 2003, 04:44 AM
You could be right KK, maybe this may work maybe not. Maybe it will be enough of a shot in the arm that others think about other means to combat KP.

What questions of yours were asked that went un-answered. You have to admit we had alot coming our way at a pace in that GFY thread. We did our best to answer the frenzy. It was alot to respond to by DJ and myself only but we put in over 20 hours into that thread, so tap dancing was not our exit strategy. If we were not comprehensive totally in a response most likely it was just fatigue.

What were your questions that went un-answered?

SO you think the CC processors would see no value in this screening practice?
As a paid service, no, I don't really think they would, since they are already required to screen every site they put online to take Visa transactions, and then Visa has someone else who also double checks that review.

Now it's certainly still possible for someone to change their site after it's been approved, and that's been a problem that isnt going to go away from the beginning.

But the US/EU processors that are correctly set up in Visa's eyes are not taking these transactions, and the ones that do run these transactions don't really care what you, me or anyone else thinks of them, as I see it.

I also see that sponsors who employ this type of search and destroy software, so to speak, stand a very good chance of putting themselves into a liability situation for ANY conduct from their affiliates -- ie spam. What sponsor would knowingly put themselves into a position where they are the police? None with any sense, since if they miss something there's a very good chance they could end up on the short end of the stick in other areas of their business.

I'm not saying that it isn't a very noble intention you've started out with here, Lee, I am just pointing out the practicality of using this type of software and the issues that it may inadvertently bring up for the users.