World Criminal Court Cites Bush War Criminal

[Opti]

I have been very critical of Bush's decision to reverse Clinton's previous support for the World Crinimal Court... and I still think Clinton was on the right track, BUT..

JR asked in another thread if it was legal for the coalition to attack Saddam's bunker and ry and assasinate him before the fighting started and it got me thinking..

If Bush had signed on to that WCC agreement can you imagine how many complaints would have been filed against American's by now?... about that first strike for one... and about the use of cluster bombs which they officially confirmed started dropping today..

In fact I wonder if anyone is filing complaints against the British.. they are the ones that have been dropping the cluster bombs apparently.

(as usual Australia didn't sign on to the WCC in support of the USA)

[Mike AI]

Opti I have read that some people/countries are trying to sue George Bush and other American leaders in that court.

How stupid is the rest of the world??

[Opti]

I dunno about how stupid everyone else is :matey: ... with war happening Bush did do the right thing for America on this one though imho... B)

My thoughts is that this war wouldn't have happened with Clinton in office and probably same result with Gore.. and therefore strong US participation in WCC would be a good thing to balance out the European influence.. But that isn't what happened we have a war.. and right now Bush does look like he took the smart option :yowsa:

[Torone]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 3 2003, 12:29 PM
Opti I have read that some people/countries are trying to sue George Bush and other American leaders in that court.

How stupid is the rest of the world??
Stupid enough not to be learning a lesson from what's happening to Saddam...

[cj]

Originally posted by Torone+Apr 3 2003, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Torone @ Apr 3 2003, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Apr 3 2003, 12:29 PM
Opti I have read that some people/countries are trying to sue George Bush and other American leaders in that court.

How stupid is the rest of the world??
Stupid enough not to be learning a lesson from what's happening to Saddam...[/b][/quote]
that sounded awfully like a really dumb threat

:woo:

this is 1 time where I feel perfectly justified in saying 'you just don't get it' because its obvious, you don't.

look at the 2 right wing comments ...


--
How stupid is the rest of the world??

Stupid enough not to be learning a lesson from what's happening to Saddam...
--

and then they ask ... "Why doesn't anyone like us?"


:wankit:

[Mike AI]

CJ you apaprently do not understand the concept of LAW.

There is something called Jurisdiction. It is a primary component to all cases/issues. Without it, no court has control over a person, or his property.

The World Court, has no Jurisditcion over anything - especially not in the United States, it would violate our Constitution. That is why we have not, nor would we sign it. ( if we did Supreme Court would over turn it).

It would be like me setting up a court on my 45 acres to prosecute stupid people. Would that mean Ulfie could bring charges against you for being stupid, and you would tell my court, and Ulfie to "Fuck off" - and you would be right - because we have no jurisdcition over you. Same thing with US Citizens, and of course US Presidents with the World Court.

The World Court is a farce, it is a fiction created by people who have to much time on their hands. People who think one world gov't will be utopia.

Come on girlie.... you can do better.... I can just feel you seething....

You are just going to have to face it that you are living in a world of Pax Americana.... and it will not be changing anytime soon. The US will continue to get stronger. The parts of the world that "hate" us, are simply due to ENVY.... nothing more, nothing less.

:salute: :salute:

[cj]

if people like you continue to run your country, you will NOT be the leader for many more decades. one day you will piss off another country so badly they will drop THE bomb. your mind is so closed to the outside world that you don't even realize how close that point is.

keep :wankit:

[Mike AI]

HAHA I will take that as a compliment CJ.

I think my views of the world are pretty solid. I have a strong background in foreign policy, and international affairs. At least the University who gave me a diploma thought so.

It is not about ignorance, it is about the Real Politik school of foreign policy which dates back to Thucydides and the History of the Pelopensian War.

The reality is, the world is LUCKY that the United States is a reluctant superpower, we have no interest in Empires, or anything else. Just long term stability, and globalization.

Did you learn about Jurisdiction? :D :P I came up with a few other examples that could help incase you are still strugling with the concept.

I must apologize to Ulfie, I just threw out his name for my example, I doubt he would want anything to do with lawyers! haha

Oh and as far as THE BOMB, I have no doubt that people like Saddam, Bin Laden, or other terrorist thugs would nuke the US in a heartbeat if they had the capacity to do so. That is why WE must fight and destroy them before they have this opportunity. To these people CJ - YOU TOO are an infidel... infact probably worse off them me since you are female.... they would be happy to nuke Australia as well!

[PornoDoggy]

Actually, Mike, my experience has been that there are a few people who are jealous of the United States.

Many of them that I have met - recently and back when Uncle sent me around a couple of places - don't dislike the U.S., although they view our government with suspicion. Do you think the Australian Prime Minister is committing political suicide because of the righteousness of our cause, or is it because he hopes to persuade the morons in DC not to try and buy friendship with the Indonesians again - which we have done repeatedly in the past in spite of the dangers that it presents to an ally that's never hesitated to support us in any of our follies?

And they find certain kinds of American arrogance, particlularly when expressed by boorish people without a clue about the world, very offensive. Frankly, the way you talk about "thje world of Pax Americana" makes me ashamed to be from the same place as you are - not of my country - just some of the clueless who live here.

[cj]

you've resorted to posting your education resume?!!? LOL you really are reaching this time.

I'm not going to be drawn into your bullshit today, nice try on the 'suddam hates women' thing though ... really good in fact!!

you are really good at throwing in irrelevant points based on the passions of your debating opposition to try to get a rise. keep it up! at least its entertaining for your buddies!

but more than anything, you are really good at this!!

:wankit:

[cj]

pd, thank you for showing me that at least someone understands my attitude and why I feel this way.

[Mike AI]

HAHA lighten up PD, I am just beating the drum a little to get a response. There could be a Pax Americana but because this Nation is so great, we only want to help. We have no designs to conquest the world or anything else....

The reality of globilization is that US Companies are doing it. I am sure you are familiar with Thomas Friedman, a very good columnist ( though I don't agree with everything he writes), read his book The Lexus and the Olive Tree.

Actually I recomend this book to everyone.... Miss Eve you would like it.

Anyway, the United States gov't SHOULD be viewed with suspicion... hell most people in the US have the same suspicions. Are we perfect? Not even close.... But we do more good then bad, and we have helped shaoe the world towards a good, safe course....

We are a reluctant Giant... if it was up to most of the country, we would just mind out own business and stay uninvolved with the world. But unfortunately we cannot....

You know I like to get worked up PD. I have been watching the news for 2 weeks, constantly - I am very proud of my Country, of our President, and most imporantly the great men in our armed forces! I get carried away and tend to overstate things.... but I am around friends, hopefully I will be forgiven for my Philistine ways.


:D :P :rolleyes:

[Mike AI]

CJ this thread was about WORLD CRIMINAL COURT and them trying to bring up Bush on charges.

I just pointed out how stupid it was, that it was a chirade, a mocking of real law, and generally a sham.

Then you jumped in, so I tried to EDUCATE you on the concept of Jurisdiction, and how a world court interacts with the US Constitution.

I gave my part of my resume to try and explain that I am far from ignorant and closed minded about the world and foreign policy. Of course, maybe if I was as enlightened like you, I would have a better grasp on important geo-political issues.

[cj]

>>But we do more good then bad

for whom mike?


wow you've really got the flow of verbal diarrhea going good tonight!!!!

you can have a gold star!!

:wankit:

[Mike AI]

:D

Night CJ!

:salute:

[cj]

same time next week?


night!



:salute:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 4 2003, 01:43 AM
CJ this thread was about WORLD CRIMINAL COURT and them trying to bring up Bush on charges.

I just pointed out how stupid it was, that it was a chirade, a mocking of real law, and generally a sham.

Then you jumped in, so I tried to EDUCATE you on the concept of Jurisdiction, and how a world court interacts with the US Constitution.

I gave my part of my resume to try and explain that I am far from ignorant and closed minded about the world and foreign policy. Of course, maybe if I was as enlightened like you, I would have a better grasp on important geo-political issues.
The arguements about "jurisdiction" and "soverignty" are nothing more than a fraud and ruse used by conservatives - and maybe even believed by some of them. It's funny that all these people talking about the need for 21st century attitudes are adopting a late 19/early 20th century world view.

Participation in the World Court would be no different than membership in the United Nations or the obligations under any treaty.

[-= JR =-]

Bush cannot be tried in the World Court because the US did not sign up to that agreement and is obligated to reject such a decision to try him. its probably safe to say that armed commandos may probably not succeed in slipping into the US to arrest and deport him.

There are several international courts and arbitration courts. the only difference is this is a criminal court. the OFFICIAL statements i remember for the US not signing up to it, (fair to point out that Russia, China and other major powers also did not) was that as Bush said many times people will probably use this court to carry out politically motivated attacks against US officials and US Military. Probably a reasonable and legitimate concern. the US government (unless memory failrs me) was originally pushing for several various exemptions from different clauses in the agreement which were not granted.

I was in Stockholm Sweden last weekend and there was a pro-Palestinian demonstration and march (which i briefy participated in because i just could not resist the irony that no one knew i was American) - but there were numerous calls to bring Bush to the World Court as with Sharon.

[Trev]

Originally posted by Opti@Apr 3 2003, 05:03 PM
In fact I wonder if anyone is filing complaints against the British.. they are the ones that have been dropping the cluster bombs apparently.
Your point being?

Don't forget this is a "US Led" attack on Iraq.... we are just part of the gumbo taking orders from "your" Commander and Chief.... operating on the plan that was devised in the pentagon not the MoD.

So could you please enlighten me as to what you’re trying to insinuate?!?!

[Jeremy-RR]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 3 2003, 09:29 AM
Opti I have read that some people/countries are trying to sue George Bush and other American leaders in that court.

How stupid is the rest of the world??
LOL.

I wonder if way back in time, when the various states were coalescing (sp?) into the United States, people said the same thing about an overlord federal criminal code and court system?

[Almighty Colin]

I think you're ALL wrong. I'm going back to bed.

:ph34r:

j/k.

Isn't "international law' mostly a matter of enforceability?

Pax Americana? Pax = Peace. Where is that happening?

The concept of sovereignty is a fraud used by conservatives? How so? I'm probably not understanding you, PD. Why isn't the philosophical ideology of national sovereignty on intellectual par with the idea of internationalism?

Trev, Opti is from Australia so UK troops are not taking commands from HIS commander and chief. Drop cluster bombs all ya want though ;-)

[Trev]

Originally posted by Colin@Apr 4 2003, 11:24 AM
Trev, Opti is from Australia so UK troops are not taking commands from HIS commander and chief. Drop cluster bombs all ya want though ;-)
Ahhh I see... that would at least explain his disdain for the British :blink:

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Trev+Apr 4 2003, 03:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Trev @ Apr 4 2003, 03:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Opti@Apr 3 2003, 05:03 PM
In fact I wonder if anyone is filing complaints against the British.. they are the ones that have been dropping the cluster bombs apparently.
Your point being?

Don't forget this is a "US Led" attack on Iraq.... we are just part of the gumbo taking orders from "your" Commander and Chief.... operating on the plan that was devised in the pentagon not the MoD.

So could you please enlighten me as to what you’re trying to insinuate?!?![/b][/quote]
the point is probably that those that followed the orders are equally liable for war crimes as those that gave the orders. thats the law.

that being said... bomb away. its not a direct violation of the law i think. i think its more about semantics in what is appropriate or necessary. its certainly not any worse and definately not more illegal than using depleted uranium munitions that A-10's, Apaches and other tanks use to slice tanks into pieces. i haven't heard the world complaining about that this time around as with Kosovo and Gulf War 1, so maybe they dont do it anymore.

[Almighty Colin]

M1a1s still use depleted uranium.

[slavdogg]

Depleted Uranium Weapons News

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200303...31-040652-2989r (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030331-040652-2989r)

http://www.mndaily.com/new_site/article.php?id=5473

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0330-02.htm

[Torone]

Originally posted by cj@Apr 4 2003, 01:02 AM
if people like you continue to run your country, you will NOT be the leader for many more decades. one day you will piss off another country so badly they will drop THE bomb. your mind is so closed to the outside world that you don't even realize how close that point is.

keep :wankit:
Hahahahaha! Do you realize how many 'bombs' we have...That's one reason why the part of the world that hates us does so. It's why the Communists gave up threats and began infiltrating our gov't.

Threat? No, my statement was a warning. We didn't sign that treaty; and woe to those who would try to force it upon us...

[Torone]

Originally posted by Colin@Apr 4 2003, 06:58 AM
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
People see the u-word; but either do not see the word 'depleted' or do not know what it means...

[Almighty Colin]

Torone,

It's a good thing you're not in charge. :blink:

If you really want to know why people "hate the US" try listening to them.

The "world hates us" because we have invented a new form of imperialism. We enforce a new world order with might. This is probably the fate of any state that sits atop the pecking order of nations. Granted, US imperialism is different than Soviet, British, German or even Roman imperialism in the sense that the US is not expanding territorially. It is willing, however, to use force in order to achieve political goals.

The US has been doing this pretty consistently since World War II (even before) but many people in the world viewed it as a balancing power to the spectre of Soviet empire. The disintegration of the USSR has freed up a lot of hate.

There are a lot of people in the world that could go either way. They may end up pro or anti-US.
There are a lot of people that could view the US positively rather than negatively. It will be a very difficult sea to traverse. It will be very difficult to counter threats in the world that are aimed predominantly at the US without expending more and more political capital.

One more note: If extremist terrorist organizations blew up the largest buildings in Russia, China, France, Germany, etc. we'd probably all be on the same side. Since they haven't, they have effectively split and divided the world. I think Osama is delirious with happiness.






Last edited by Colin at Apr 4 2003, 08:32 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Torone+Apr 4 2003, 08:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Torone @ Apr 4 2003, 08:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Apr 4 2003, 06:58 AM
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
People see the u-word; but either do not see the word 'depleted' or do not know what it means...[/b][/quote]
I'm quite sure I do. Thanks for checking.

[Torone]

Originally posted by Colin+Apr 4 2003, 08:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Apr 4 2003, 08:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Torone@Apr 4 2003, 08:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Apr 4 2003, 06:58 AM
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
People see the u-word; but either do not see the word 'depleted' or do not know what it means...
I'm quite sure I do. Thanks for checking.[/b][/quote]
I assumed you do. That's why I used your post as an anchor.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Torone+Apr 4 2003, 08:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Torone @ Apr 4 2003, 08:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Apr 4 2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by -Torone@Apr 4 2003, 08:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Apr 4 2003, 06:58 AM
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
People see the u-word; but either do not see the word 'depleted' or do not know what it means...
I'm quite sure I do. Thanks for checking.
I assumed you do. That's why I used your post as an anchor.[/b][/quote]
Your momma wears army boots.

[Trev]

Your momma wears army boots.

hahahahahaha :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

I'm going to stop reading this board... I keep spitting beer all over my monitor

:D



Last edited by Trev at Apr 4 2003, 01:54 PM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Trev@Apr 4 2003, 08:54 AM
Your momma wears army boots.

hahahahahaha :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

I'm going to stop reading this board... I keep spitting beer all over my monitor

:D
Ahhh, you must be quite :hic:

[Mike AI]

Colin you are right about the "New" Imperialism - it is the Imperialism of our Culture, and it is NOT forced on other countries, the people in other parts of the world WANT what we have.

I can understand how other countries feel threatened by part of the US Culture - I know I have some issues with it, and I am a patriot. Since WWII, our culture has been spreading around the world, and many of the ideas that we hold dear, freedom, free markets, suspicion of authority, and all the other American traits are a major threat to those who are in power of Dictatorships.

But one cannot change the tides.... and the tide of WESTERN Culture ( because for the most part the West works together, and are already plugged into globalization) is sweeping the world, and will not be turned back.

[Torone]

Originally posted by Colin+Apr 4 2003, 08:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Apr 4 2003, 08:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Torone@Apr 4 2003, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by -Colin@Apr 4 2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by -Torone@Apr 4 2003, 08:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Apr 4 2003, 06:58 AM
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
People see the u-word; but either do not see the word 'depleted' or do not know what it means...
I'm quite sure I do. Thanks for checking.
I assumed you do. That's why I used your post as an anchor.
Your momma wears army boots.[/b][/quote]
And yours carries a mattress on her back and follows troop movements; but why the insult? I also chose your post because it was short. :nyanya:

[cj]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 4 2003, 02:21 PM
Colin you are right about the "New" Imperialism - it is the Imperialism of our Culture, and it is NOT forced on other countries, the people in other parts of the world WANT what we have.
see mike, this is where you are just plain wrong ...

how do you know what the rest of the world wants?

do you think that because mcdonalds are in every city that the world wants to be like america?

hardly, its because everyone wants quick hamburgers, we're all busy, even us non americans in our poor little 3rd world countries ...

while foreign countries embrace many technologies that started in america, we also reject (by choice) most of your culture ... me personally, i invite american culture into my home ... but most people regularly reject things because they are 'too american'.

if you'd let your ears have a turn, you might hear what i'm saying as NOT anti american ... people like you frustrate me, because I know for a FACT that the bigger percentage of my country and many other non americans feel that YOU and those who think like you are what makes us NOT want to be like america. If I had to sum up what I hate about your country, and there isn't much, its quite simply, those who believe their country is the only correct place to live.

how disrespectful do you have to be to other cultures, to assume that we would want to dismiss our own traditions to take on those of your culture? Do you really think that the rest of the world has it that badly that we are begging to be saved by big macs and oversized cars?

I love most of your culture, and I respect that you have a right to be proud of it. Why can't you give the rest of the world the same courtesy?

[-= JR =-]

Just read CJ's post,

"Triumph of a Penal Colony'

Good Stuff!

< just joking CJ :) >

i was thinking again about what i have seen in the last two years:

Russia
-Moscow
-St Petersburg

Korea
-Pusan
-Seoul (everything in between - once took a train accross the country)

Thailand
-Bangkok (lived there ONLY because i liked the food. no really! )

Canada
-love BC , Vancouver area.

France-
-Paris (many times)
-Lyon
-Marseilles
-Menton, Cap Martin area (by Italian border) - love that place
-Nice
-Cannes
-Antibes

Monaco - love that place too.

Italy
-Genoa
-Milan
-Pisa
-Rome
-Venice
-everywhere along the Riviera

Spain
-Barcelona

Austria
-Vienna
-Innsbruck
-Salzburg (they said Mozart died before we got there :( )

Germany
-Frankfurt
-Berlin (several times)
-Stuttgart
-Regensburg (where the spinchat.de guys are)
-Munich

Netherlands (several times)
-Amsterdam
-Rotterdam
-The Hague (could not find Miloslovich)

Belgium
-Brussels (odd place for EU capital if you ask me)
-Antwerp (bought no diamonds)

Luxembourg
love that place. very cool.

Great Britain
-London

Finland
-Helsinki
-Porvo
-Turku

Sweden
-Stockholm (love that place too)

here is what i think based on what i have seen:

My experience is that most people in Europe think Americans are a bunch of arrogant assholes and high on themselves. Most people reject Americans completely - and Americans tend to think that Brittney Spears topping the pop charts in "Deadcowistan" means they like America. it doesn't. it means they like a song by Brittney Spears.

American culture is not taking over the world in my opinion. American movies and music are everywhere - but that accounts for about 90% of the presence of Global influence culturally. in you are trying to find a pair of Levis in Helsinki, you better pack a lunch.

Most of Europe and presumably, the world as well takes deep pride in their history, in their cultures and their traditions and view the US and the ultimate "anti-culture" which in most peoples opinion, is nothing more than a culture of excess, arrogance and self indulgence.

My opinion has long been that Americans really fail to appreciate their deep disconnection with the rest of the world.

Americans love to talk about the success of the US economy or its military might as a measure of success against other countries. This is sort of flawed because it assumes that other countries have the same attitude about growth and expansion and are trying to compete. its irrelevent if i take pride in being the fastest runner in the world... yet the only runner in the race. It may be true in places like Japan and others - but most people in Europe care more about the quality of their life. for them, it means just taking time to sit, relax, think, read, write or enjoy a park or to sit in the shadow of a 2000 year old cathedral and listen to their walkman. Euro Disney outside of Paris (been there too) is unprofitable for a reason... because its mostly supported by tourists from outside of Europe and people in Europe could largely care less unless its just out of morbid curiosity.

American Music is not any more popular in Europe than European groups. With the exceptions of the mega stars (madonna, Britney spears etc), you will find more European music on all charts. Its easy to lose perspective on that when European and ANY music not in English does not make the US charts and when it does, its assumed to be American... yet in Europe, at any given moment there are top singles in numerous languages.

American films i dont think are popular in the world because they are better written, better acted and better produced. i watch all kinds of foreign films that are really good. there are some very big advantages that we dont think about when looking at international box office sales... that is being able to spend $250,000,000.00 on production and another $50,000,000.00 on marketing combined with unparalleled distribution capabilities.

My honest opinion is that there is no American "imperialism". Just an American impression of imperialism. I mean the American impression of their impact on the world is far greater than the actual impact. That idea is going to fade as well if/when the EU gets its shit together and people finally realize that China is quickly becoming the new America.

[Almighty Colin]

My comments on "American Imperialism" weren't meant as a commentary on cultural diffusion.

Why are people in China learning English but people in the US not learning Chinese? When I was in France, nearly everyone spoke English. Why? Not counting those who were born in India, UK, Australia and other countries that have English as their primary language. They have their own reasons, of course. Leaders of many countries in the world conduct interviews in English. Why? People all over the world used to learn French. It was considered the "international language". What changed? [After English colonialisn, of course].

My grandparents came to America from Italy in 1921. Why? Many people in the last century, the world over, have viewed America as the land of opportunity. My grandparents did.
America marketed itself well. Maybe we are seeing a fallout from that now. Maybe with the fall of the USSR people don't have "sides" to choose from. Maybe this is just a bump in the road. We don't know.

What I meant by "American Imperialism" though is the shaping of a region of the world by economic or military means. The replacing of the Taliban with the Karzai government. The removal of Saddam from power. Kuwait permitting the US to base there for a military operation [would have never happened in 1978]. America is practicing imperialism without colonialism. She wields her military power to reshape the global political landscape. Why is the US so involved in the "Middle East peace process". This is the imperialism I was talking about.

Of course, many Americans see this as a good thing. Altering the environment to her benefit. Many people elsewhere see it as bullying. I think both points of view are completely correct. I think most every country attempts to influence the world to it's benefit and does so roughly in proportion to it's power in the world. Power may be militaristic, economic [related], standing in the UN [France derives power from it's veto], which side you choose in military conflicts and many other things. It cannot be ignored that military strength is a decisively important factor in the relationship between nations. The five countries with veto power in the UN Security Council are declared nuclear states. Chance? No way.

Military might is a fundamental variable in the political relationship between nations. At the start of this current war France, Germany, and Belgium had a meeting to discuss some sort of possible military alliance to balance American power.

I see JR's point and agree and have always regarding the "greatness of nations" flaw. People find the best think about their nation and think of it's strength in terms of those qualities. A good example is the frequent French dismissal of America as a "Land without culture".

Military and economic power are much more fundamental in the world power struggle though - and there certainly is one - than how nice one's beaches are.

In the past decade America's military power has headed to new heights and the opposing Soviet power has shrunk. How will the balance of power in the world shift as a result? New alliances, new militarization, anti-Americanism leading to decreased propagation of McDonald's and Coca Cola?

Ands everything turns, turns, turns, turns.



Last edited by Colin at Apr 5 2003, 12:28 PM

[Mike AI]

CJ I think all cultures are great. I think every culture has something to bring to the table.... The conflict/bringing together of cultures have expanded human knowledge and experience.

But there are some cultures that have anomolies - those who abuse their people, destroy basic human rights, who the free world should put pressure on to correct. It becomes a MAJOR necessity when these anomolies become militiristic and put the well being of free people at risk have to be intervened.

I truly hope in our lifetimes that Iraq is a free democracy, and we can all visit the fertile crescent. I cannot imagine visting any cooler/historic place. There is a lot of history, and a lot of culture to be explored.

So CJ, we can take our cameras and get some great photos!

The ironic thing is at one time the islamic world was the elightened ones. When Europe was in the middle ages, slaughtering people because they claimed the world was round, or NOT the center of the universe, or because they were "witches" - the Islamic world was doing complex algebra, figuring out what 0 was, advances in astronomy, etc....

The Islamic world when they clashed with Europe brought many of this advances with them....

[cj]

There is a lot of history, and a lot of culture to be explored.

So CJ, we can take our cameras and get some great photos!
-----

of what, piles of rubble?

there will be a large portion of people who hate us there for a long time to come ... i aint visiting in a hurry. There's plenty of other *friendly* places in the world to visit that I haven't been to yet.

you are still claiming that you know what's best for other cultures ... I guess no common sense will break through what you believe to be true. That's sad for you, and for the future of your country.

Colin, your post talks about imperialism, and the global cultural changes that have occured ... people are learning english, the value of the dollar is almost always compared to the american dollar in many countries, and immigrants see america as the land of opportunity ...

There's no question that america is powerful and influential, but there are more examples of where the american culture is agressively rejected than embraced. You can talk about nuclear power and how that is what controls the choices of our governments - yep, great, guns control governments. That's hardly new ...

But, guns can't control people's attitudes ... Iraq is a perfect example. Much of Iraq's daily rules are forced on them by their government, and yet look how many there are who stand against those principals because they simple don't want them in their lives ... We are counting on it to win this war!

Of course the nations with the strongest fire power will be making the decisions in the UN and any other global group of power ... and in turn, many of the cultural traits of those countries will be more strongly pushed on the rest of the world.

Do you think that forcing cultural changes on a country will make the people of that country sit back and think 'oh well, i dont have a choice, they have bigger guns'? Of course not ... they form groups and protest and harass their own government and if they still aren't listened to, there is always an extremist who will blow shit up. The average Joe (or mohammed), isn't scared of the power of the American government ... other Governments may be, but the feeling is not always (i'd say rarely) shared by the residents of their countries.

American Imperialism has been strong for many decades, and the result was 9/11 ... the great many who dislike western culture don't care how many guns your government has, because they can hijack a plane, carefully plan and choose major targets, and cause 2 years (so far) of damage ...

Look at the chain of events that have followed 9/11 ... The U.S. economy is nose diving, many people are scared to fly, the people of our western countries are torn between feeling that we caused it through imperialism or feeling angry and full of vengence.

We all know america has big guns, did it help in this case?

[Mike AI]

CJ there are some basic HUMAN RIGHTS. Which include freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to not be murdered, property rights, etc... etc...

There are some cultures that do NOT hold this rights to the same degree as western nations - ironicly these cultures that do NOT have these rights are the "hot spots" in the world. The spead of basic human rights and freedom has expanded with globalization.

I do not think like you CJ, I think there are basic human rights that all people deserve - no matter what their culture, their religion, age, region or anything else.

I am so the people who have been opressed and murder by regimes like Saddam Husseuin will thank your understanding and support of Saddams Culture.

To say that all cultures are equal on all issues is WRONG, and morally bankrupt. People deserve to enjoy the basic freedoms of Human Rights.


To say all cultures are equal no matter what is wrong. If that was the case we should still encourgae slavery since it was part of the culture in many societies around the world. Maybe we should also take the right of women to vote here in the US, since this is pretty recent that they could vote. I could go on and on.... but I doubt you will change you mind....

The way I feel is while I think everyone deserves these basic human rights, I do not think the US should force them onto other people through military intervention. It is only when these cultures become THREATS to us that we need to go in and intervene militarily.... like we are doing in Iraq. But while we are there, we might as well try to fix things, and setup a fresh culture where good squads do not pull people from their houses and kill them for speaking up against the regime, a culture where the gov't does not gas their own people.

[Mike AI]

Oh and CJ there has been NO American Imperalism.... not since the Spanish-American war.

If anythign through out history we have worked to break up other peoples Empires. Including Europes....

Globalization is spreading accross the world, while the US is the top economic power, and hence pushes globalization - it is not the only one. Everyon who is plugged into the world economy if part of it... and that includes you wonderful country! ( Not being sarcastic, Austrialia is an important partner in the world economy)

[Almighty Colin]

CJ,

I don't place any value judgement on any of the things we are discussing. Do I think that people will just sit back and think "oh well, I don't have a choice"? No, of course not!

Just to be clear and you probably already know this .. I didn't say it was good, bad, or anything. I'm not placing any value judgement on it. Just pointed out that it is. As we both know, none of this is new in the world. It's all relative. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think there's such a thing as a "best nation" or anything like that. I am not making any points to argue for why one country is BETTER than another.

Now ...

"American Imperialism". By what criteria is it "strong"? It's probably one of the weakest forms of imperialism to ever exist on Earth. Look at what "great powers" have done in the history of the world and the US stands out as being not so bad. The Spanish, British, French, English, Romans, Ottomans, Russians, and Germans used their power to subjugate people of foreign lands to their rule. They conquered and kept. Just to be sure, Empire is not dead. Just a few decades ago the Soviet Union was rumbling across Eastern Europe annexing countries. Maybe this is the source of the phrase "Pax America" and "New World Order". Empires of conquest will no longer be permitted in the world. We'll see.

This is why I call US actions as imperialism without colonialism. I do see them as imperialistic and I can see why people perceive the US in the way they do. I would also point out that this happened during VietNam. There were anti-US protests in Germany, for example. Waves of anti-Americanism have swept the world since World War II but for the first time since WW II, there is no balancing power. In my view, this permits attention to be focused more squarely on the US than ever before.

The US hasn't changed it's actions in the past four decades. It is involved in the same number of conflicts and wars as it always has been. Korea, VietNam, Gulf War I, Gulf War II. Grenada,
Haiti, Kosovo. Why the suddenly new wave of anti-americanism world-wide? Why the protests now? America hasn't changed. Same shit. Different decade. To me, the answer is the fall of the USSR. Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

Is Australia an imperialist power? It seems to send troops off to wherever the US does. What is the difference? The number of troops?

As far as "US imperialism causing 9/11". Every event was caused by some other event in someone's mind. One person can say "Hitler started World War II". Hitler said "The allies unfairly treated us at the end of World War I. THAT started World War II". One person says "America started this war". Another says "Saddam's actions started this war". It's all a matter of what starting point you choose.

What would have been the consequences of United States inaction the past five decades. A Japanese Empire? A stronger USSR? The spread of communism? One third or more of the world's oil in Saddam's hands? A conquered Israel? Nukes in Saddam's hands? Interesting choices.

We didn't start the fire. It was always burning.



Last edited by Colin at Apr 6 2003, 06:57 AM

[Almighty Colin]

How is the US economy "nose diving"? GDP is GROWING, albeit slower than it was. Much of the world is experiencing the same slow growth that the United States is, but it is growth. It seems pretty minor. Oil prices alone might explain that - but no one knows.



Last edited by Colin at Apr 6 2003, 06:45 AM

[cj]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 6 2003, 12:29 AM
I do not think like you CJ, I think there are basic human rights that all people deserve - no matter what their culture, their religion, age, region or anything else.

I am so the people who have been opressed and murder by regimes like Saddam Husseuin will thank your understanding and support of Saddams Culture.
see, you can't get your head past the idea that my negative comments are a support to Suddam Hussein ... The fact that you have concluded that any opinion I have against anything at all must be in support of saddam, makes it fruitless to have a discussion.

*but i'm bored and procrastinating on a job I have to do so i'll beat my head against the wall some more

This is not about human rights, we've been through lists of other countries where people do not have their basic rights ... you can claim that you are there because they have become a threat to us after 9/11, but how do you justify the american interference there prior to 9/11?

In every post you talk about the 'fixing' of the iraqui people's lives, which is great if all you are talking about doing is giving them basic human rights .... but the way you talk is if you intend to remove as much of their culture as you can and replace it with an american tourist disneyland style location where we will all get to visit and awe at the improvement to the place that we 'fixed'.

When you remove suddam, and give people the freedom to live in a democracy, and distribute wealth so there is less poverty ... etc etc ... we are still left with Islam and the rejection (and hatred) of western ways. For every problem we 'fix', we are creating another hater. Saddam isn't the only influence on his people's minds.

You seem to forget, we are on the same side in the fight against suddam. I'm nervous as hell on this island with practically no protection and a bunch of pissed off muslims a boat ride away - i feel like we are poking a stick into an ants nest. and although I want to support the direction we are going, I see so many dangers and areas where this can backfire on all of our asses. And what america does, australia does, so if it goes bad, we are all fucked!

These young boys, 10 year olds who are screaming anti american slogans and throwing stones at our soldiers will be old enough to join the underground military soon ... is the 'threat' going to be sorted out by then?

Its a good thing you have enough confidence in your leader for both of us.

[cj]

Originally posted by Colin@Apr 6 2003, 06:39 AM
What would have been the consequences of United States inaction the past five decades. A Japanese Empire? A stronger USSR? The spread of communism? One third or more of the world's oil in Saddam's hands? A conquered Israel? Nukes in Saddam's hands? Interesting choices.
I object your honor!
Speculation!

I don't know what the world would be like if usa didn't act on these issues, do you?

It would be worse for us, but possibly better for some other country somewhere.

Maybe your grandparents would have gone from Italy to somewhere else ... maybe the people of germany would have eventually overthrown hitler! :blink: maybe a giant monster would have risen from the sea and eaten all of the humans and none of us would have been born except a small tribe of eskimo's in alaska and the whole of civilisation would start again from hunting and gathering era. :blink:

If things weren't one way, they'd be another

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj+Apr 6 2003, 07:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Apr 6 2003, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Apr 6 2003, 06:39 AM
What would have been the consequences of United States inaction the past five decades. A Japanese Empire? A stronger USSR? The spread of communism? One third or more of the world's oil in Saddam's hands? A conquered Israel? Nukes in Saddam's hands? Interesting choices.
I object your honor!
Speculation!

I don't know what the world would be like if usa didn't act on these issues, do you?

[/b][/quote]
That's why they all have question marks!

I'm going to the beach. Back later ...

[Mike AI]

Speaking of speculation CJ..... Shhhesshh! haha

Colin, I think CJ is one of those people who beleive the Iraqi Minister of Information. :D

[Nickatilynx]

US imperialism is different than Soviet, British, German or even Roman imperialism in the sense that the US is not expanding territorially

Really?
Lets see who administrates Iraq afte the war.

;)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Apr 6 2003, 01:51 PM
US imperialism is different than Soviet, British, German or even Roman imperialism in the sense that the US is not expanding territorially

Really?
Lets see who administrates Iraq afte the war.

;)
not you canadien sissies, thanks God

[Mike AI]

not you canadien sissies, thanks God

What are you talking aboot? eh?

:P :D :) B)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 6 2003, 03:09 PM
not you canadien sissies, thanks God

What are you talking aboot? eh?

:P :D :) B)
read above

[RawAlex]

Serge is just having a pissed off at Canadians day... common on all threads... bait for the easily hooked, I guess.

Alex

[Nickatilynx]

Alex,
He either needs sleep or must spend less time with Forest. ;)

BTW Serge if a near relative was a member of certain college societies,you get in.

[Mike AI]

From what I understand, if you get rid of Quebec ( frenchies) the support for the US is actually a majority. I have read some intersting stories...

So I guess not all Canadiens suck! haha :P

[cj]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Apr 6 2003, 12:15 PM
Speaking of speculation CJ..... Shhhesshh! haha

Colin, I think CJ is one of those people who beleive the Iraqi Minister of Information. :D
good one mike!! you get out of having to use your own brain again!!
:okthumb:




:wankit:

[RawAlex]

cj, it's a standard technique... easier to paint you as an extremist or totally ignorant than to deal with the ideas your posting. Between that and baiting, it's interesting around here. :-)

Alex

[cj]

yeah i wonder which of these topics mike will be parroting next ...

Stop Apologizing for Civilian Casualties
Peter Schwartz, 04/03/03

Smashing Windows for Peace
Robert Garmong, 03/25/03

Thought Control
Onkar Ghate, 03/19/03

Don't Defy the United Nations—End It
Robert W. Tracinski, 03/18/03

They Hate Us, Too
Peter Schwartz, 03/17/03

[Nickatilynx]

Between that and baiting, it's interesting around here. :-)

sarcasm?

[RawAlex]

Nick, who me? Nahhh... no sarcasm here... none at all... ever...

Alex :rolleyes:

[Nickatilynx]

just checking ;)

[Mike AI]

CJ no parroting here - you are the one with no basis for your arguements but the way you "feel".

It is difficult to debate issues with someone so far out of touch with reality, and relies merely upon her simpleton emotional state to guide her arguements.

The best part of our "debates" is that reality is following my arguements. Watch the news... The people who have similiar views of Foreign Policy, and National Security are the ones running the show. Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Dr. Rice, Dick Cheney, all the way down...

[Nickatilynx]

The people who have similiar views of Foreign Policy, and National Security are the ones running the show. Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Dr. Rice, Dick Cheney, all the way down...


and 75% of the worlds nations believe the US has acted inappropriately.

I suspect therefore they have some lack of knowledge in Foriegn affairs.

;)



Last edited by Nickatilynx at Apr 6 2003, 06:48 PM

[Mike AI]

and 75% of the worlds nations believe the US has acted inappropriately.

I suspect therefore they have some lack of knowledge in Foriegn affairs.


Nick, each Nation has their own Foreign Policy which is best for their own interests. I would not expect most nations to agree with us.... I am possitive that all the nations that supported the Iraq regime are pretty ticked off - including Russia, France, Syria, etc...

That is what is great about being the United States, we CAN act unilateraly. We try not to, we always try to care about the "world" opinion, and work with inside it - however when our National Security is at risk we CAN and OBVIOUSLY do act on it, no matter what 75% of the world thinks.....

If anyone can appreciate that position Nick, I figured it would be YOU! B)

[RawAlex]

Mike, if Canada said yes all the time, then we would be nothing but lapdogs, americans in all but tax system and currency. Sometimes what is in the US interest isn't COMPLETELY in the Canadian Interest. Sometimes it is in all of our interests, but we different on the "how to get it done". If we all agreed all the time, there wouldn't be much to talk about at all, ya know?

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Apr 6 2003, 08:06 PM
Mike, if Canada said yes all the time, then we would be nothing but lapdogs, americans in all but tax system and currency. Sometimes what is in the US interest isn't COMPLETELY in the Canadian Interest. Sometimes it is in all of our interests, but we different on the "how to get it done". If we all agreed all the time, there wouldn't be much to talk about at all, ya know?

Alex
bullshit...
you do NOT agree all the time...

you disagree with prices on timber and we didn't make big deal about it despite of 1/2 of logging industry in Oregon is in trouble, because we thought you were friends...
fuck Canada and their small penis syndrom

[Nickatilynx]

If anyone can appreciate that position Nick, I figured it would be YOU!

damn and feck!

;)

[RawAlex]

Tee-hee... things must be dull Serge, you trying to piss with everyone, and nobody is biting... THAT must bite.

Alex

[Trev]

:zzz: *YAWN* :zzz:

Same shit, different thread

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Apr 6 2003, 07:19 AM
Maybe your grandparents would have gone from Italy to somewhere else ... maybe the people of germany would have eventually overthrown hitler! :blink: maybe a giant monster would have risen from the sea and eaten all of the humans and none of us would have been born except a small tribe of eskimo's in alaska and the whole of civilisation would start again from hunting and gathering era. :blink:

If things weren't one way, they'd be another
CJ,

I agree with you. And if America weren't the "bully" some other nation would be, so why stress? :P