Why we're going to liberate Iraq

[slavdogg]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=31500 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31500)

[Almighty Colin]

Slav,

Have you read Kenneth Pollack's book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375509283/qid=1047636377/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-9463018-1218351?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)?

[slavdogg]

Colin, I've seen that book but havent read it.

After reading all the reviews he sounds like he has same theories and facsts as Yossef Bodansky does.

[Almighty Colin]

I recommend the book.

Can you point me to anything in particular by Bodansky?

[slavdogg]

Colin, i think you will love this book.
The High Cost of Peace
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761535799/qid=1047641493/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3637730-8007159?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Almighty Colin]

I'll pick it up next trip to B & N. :)

[Almighty Colin]

Have you read his Bin Laden book? I see it at the bookstore all the time but have never picked it up.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 14 2003, 07:12 AM
Have you read his Bin Laden book? I see it at the bookstore all the time but have never picked it up.
nope, there is not much in there that i dont already know

he's been on msnbc not stop since 9/11 talking about that book, i figured i've heard all the juicy bits from it.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by slavdogg+Mar 14 2003, 07:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slavdogg @ Mar 14 2003, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Mar 14 2003, 07:12 AM
Have you read his Bin Laden book? I see it at the bookstore all the time but have never picked it up.
nope, there is not much in there that i dont already know

he's been on msnbc not stop since 9/11 talking about that book, i figured i've heard all the juicy bits from it.[/b][/quote]
Yeah,

Same conclusion. Different reason here. It's missing the ending.

I figured maybe I'll read a Bin Laden bio when his story is over -- which will hopefully be pretty soon.

[Mike AI]

There were, however, some colorful outbursts from the audience. One person, when I referred to "a clever psychopath leader like Saddam," shouted out "or George Bush!" When asked whether he thought America should even be hunting down Osama bin Laden for the Sept. 11 attacks, he replied that "maybe we could get some sort of dialogue going with him." Another fellow, who identified himself as a Native American, referred angrily to "broken treaties with the white man" and said the U.S. government hasn't changed ever since.


HAHAHA This is funny stuff.... Have to love the anti-war movement!!

White man speak with Fork Tounge!!

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 15 2003, 11:32 AM
There were, however, some colorful outbursts from the audience. One person, when I referred to "a clever psychopath leader like Saddam," shouted out "or George Bush!" When asked whether he thought America should even be hunting down Osama bin Laden for the Sept. 11 attacks, he replied that "maybe we could get some sort of dialogue going with him." Another fellow, who identified himself as a Native American, referred angrily to "broken treaties with the white man" and said the U.S. government hasn't changed ever since.


HAHAHA This is funny stuff.... Have to love the anti-war movement!!

White man speak with Fork Tounge!!
I agree with you in that regard, Mike. A lot of people make some pretty lame arguements to support their position, both for the war and against it. (The guy with the "start a dialouge" routine does need serious help, however.)

In the artilce slavdogg posted, for example, David Kupelian makes the disingenuous arguement that we cannot expect fair treatment at the security council in part because China "... claims to have ICBMs targeting U.S. cities." Now, I don't much care for that idea; but considering the fact that the U.S. has had ICBMs targeting Chinese cities since before China was a nuclear power, it seems we have a standoff - I don't see that as any more relevant to the issue of a war with Saddam than "broken treaties with the white man."

Our own defense department has serious questions about whether Saddam was responsible for attacking "60 villages and 30,000 citizens with poisonous gas. Between 1983 and 1988 alone, he murdered more than 30,000 Iraqi citizens with mustard gas and nerve agents." I'm not saying he did or he didn't; I suspect he did, but after falling for the "babies snatched from incubators" story 13 years ago I'm a little suspicious of my own government.

And then we get to the best one. "We went in for Hitler – who didn't attack the United States, by the way – and we are going in for Saddam.' Actually, he had attacked the United States a number of times at sea, and there was the little matter of the declaration of war Hitler declared on December 10, 1941.

So weak, shallow arguements and questionable linkage can be found on both sides of the issue, Mike - not just by the anti-war crowd.

[sextoyking]

As always in this great country of ours it's a "spin" on both sides.

what was that movie called with Eddie Murphy, he wins a seat in the house from FL. was a con man, etc,.

anyways one guy in the beginning a lobbiest was telling him if you vote yes, there is money on this side, if you vote no, supports and money over here..

Nothing is going to stop the war right now, unless mabey if Saddam leaves, but I don't think that's going to happen. Let's get this BS over and look for 2004. As of right now, I like Sen. Kerry

[Mike AI]

The whole problem with us being stalled by the UN for over 6 months, is it has given Iraq, more time to deploy its troops, put bombs on oil well, put out mine fields, etc.... There are also reports that all bridges crossing the Eurphrates have been wired to blow as well.

By being hamstrung by the UN, we have actually made war MESSIER, and will cause more causualties - not only to American Soldiers, but also Iraqi soldiers, and civilians.

It may also have helped put Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and other alies in danger from scud missles with chemical/biological weapons.

Bush's error has been to try and convince a group of countries who will NEVER be convinced and are only trying to counterbalance American Hegemony.

We should have been in and finished with this months ago....

Stalling has also hurt OUR economy as well....

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 15 2003, 03:32 PM
Bush's error has been to try and convince a group of countries who will NEVER be convinced and are only trying to counterbalance American Hegemony.

We should have been in and finished with this months ago....

Stalling has also hurt OUR economy as well....
Finished with this months ago? You're kidding, right? The troops are only now in place to do it right.

The war is the easy part - the peace is what will be hard to win. And what's six months on a ten to twenty year committment?

[Mike AI]

A 10-20 year commitment is no problem. We still have troops in Germany and Japan. Look how it stabilized the reagion....

I think Bush has a modern "Marshall Plan" for the Middle East, and Iraq is going to be the centerpeice....

In the long run, stabilization of the region is worth while, and needs to be done. There needs to be some form of democracy, freedom, and free market economics. Once this is done, the middle east will boom, and I am sure 40-50 years from now they will be on the UN trying to veto us stoppinng some crazed dictator in Cental Africa or something.

But they will munch on McDonald fries, be watching Sopranos on HBO, American Idol, theri kids will dress funny, and watch MTV, and think Britney Spears and In Sync are "The Bomb" ( their parents will reflect back in the day when The Bomb meant suicide bombers).





:D

[PornoDoggy]

I think you are living on Fantasy Island. IMHO, referring to George Marshall in the same breath with Bush is to profane the General's name.

You cannot compare our occupation of Germany and Italy with a future occupation of Iraq - there are tremendous cultural differences in the present situation that didn't apply in the past. Germany and Italy had fought wars and been through a lot of political struggles to unify as countries only 80-odd years before WWII; Iran is an artificial western creation containing elements every bit as disparate as that other western creation success story - Yugolovia.

And the idea that our form of Jeffersonian democracy will spread quickly in a culture where the right of women to drive is a radical question is just outright ludicrous. How are you going to allow democracy in a country where, at the first opportunity, you will find yourself facing an elected government run by the same Islamic fundamentalists we seek to prevent Iraq from aiding? A number of the "brutal repressive dictatorships" that some anti-Arab folks point to have become more repressive and reversed trends toward democracy in the face of Islamic fundamentalism.

I grew up in the Cold War, where the commies were hell-bent on spreading their way of life on unwilling people at the point of a gun. What you seem to be thinking sounds suspiciously like what I grew up learning was evil. And it is likely to work for us as it did for them.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Mar 15 2003, 05:48 PM

[Mike AI]

PD your a defeatist.

Back in the late 40s people like you were saying that German and Japs could not be taught the concept of Democracy and Free markets. Are you saying that people in the middle east cannot know these great gifts America is founded on?

Do you think the Iraqies have less in common then Japanansese after WWII?? The Japs thought their leaders were Gods... they were jsut as fanatical as the suicide bombers....

Sounds to me like your a racist.... I think Bush beleives the best way to stabilized the region is to spread democracy, and free markets.

Will it take a long time? Yep. Might it fail? Yep. Is it worth trying? Of course.... No country with a McDonalds has ever attacked another country with a McDonalds.

Think about it PD....






I do not think

[Rolo]

A part of history which is often forgot outside Germany is that most germans duing WW2 were against Hitler and his Nazis movement. However they did not dare to speak up - they knew what would happen if they did.

When they did go to the front it was not for Hitler, but for Germany. They feared what would happen to their country, cities, and familiy if Germany should fall. The propaganda shown to the germans stopped them from getting rid of Hitler - however many germans tried to assassinate Hitler doing WW2, and Hitler were only seconds or centimetres from getting killed many times!

Sadly when Germany were about to fall, then the worst fears for some Germans came true, when warplanes fire-bombed their cities killing tens of thousands of civilians at a time, and completly burned everything to the ground. Duing the last time of the war some 600,000 civilians were killed and 130 cities destroyed in Germany. The fire-bombs were aimed at civilians to demoralise the war effort - and it did had the effect... so great that 58 years later germans still say "never again".

So what does this have to do with the current possible Iraq war? Well beside from being an explanation to why many germans feel that war is bad, then it could also be used to explain how the people of Iraq must have it today. They know that Saddam is a bad guy, and probably 99% of them would love if Saddam was removed, but they are also affraid that if they are invaded, then what will happen to their country, cities, and families. The Iraq propaganda machine is running 24/7 in Iraq, and I bet as soon as it stops, then people will start to think for themself again.
But who will stop it? The UN? The US and UK? The people of Iraq? I guess time will tell, but I still hope that somehow Saddam is removed by his own...

If war can be avoided by removing *1 man*, then why do we not have snipers and assassins on every street corner in Bagdad? :snipe: :papow:



Last edited by Rolo at Mar 15 2003, 05:40 PM

[JR]

so far today, i have liberated 8 beers and several hand fulls of Doritos.

i agree with Mike for the most part.

i also think that all of these arguments are both necessary and pointless. history is the best judge of what was right or wrong... who was a great president or bad president and what should have been done instead. every argument or concern can be countered with an equally valid argument or concern... thats the nature of politics and the futility of arguing about a course of action with Iraq.

success can only be decided after the fact... not before. everything discussed beforehand about the outcome can be nothing more than assumption, belief, conjecture and opinion. thats a simple fact of the current situation and the idea of deposing Saddam. there is no relevent comparison that could help accurately predict the reaction in the region. its not exactly like we are talking about carpet bombing Laos. we are talking about the worlds most technologically advanced military machines against Iraq that is at about 30% capacity of where they were during Desert Storm... or more appropriately "before" desert storm began. they were totally decimated in days and the famed and feared "Elite Republican Guard" was surrendering to film crews by the thousands and abonding tanks in the desert before they got taken out.

i cant get reliable information on whether or not it is going to rain this weekend, yet so many people are certain about the outcome of a "war" with Iraq, the reaction of the Muslim world... of the destruction, devistation and suffering that will ensue as well as the rejection of a new government, democracy and of the continued problems.

the only thing i am sure of is that the hype, hysteria, predictions and fears never live up to the reality.

Torone is still trying to liberate PD and myself... i want to see how that goes before making any futher decisions about who to attack and why.



Last edited by JR at Mar 15 2003, 05:50 PM

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 15 2003, 06:59 PM
PD your a defeatist.

Back in the late 40s people like you were saying that German and Japs could not be taught the concept of Democracy and Free markets. Are you saying that people in the middle east cannot know these great gifts America is founded on?

Do you think the Iraqies have less in common then Japanansese after WWII?? The Japs thought their leaders were Gods... they were jsut as fanatical as the suicide bombers....

Sounds to me like your a racist.... I think Bush beleives the best way to stabilized the region is to spread democracy, and free markets.

Will it take a long time? Yep. Might it fail? Yep. Is it worth trying? Of course.... No country with a McDonalds has ever attacked another country with a McDonalds.

Think about it PD....
Defeatist? Well, forgive me for not accepting the McDonalds therory of international relations. I wasn't aware that franchise opportunities would have such a powerful effect on Islamic fundamentalism.

I am certainly no defeatist in the military field; the war will be the easy part. When it comes to the peace I'm a realist - and I'd rather err on the side of pessimism. I don't know where you pulled the racist crap from, but that's absolutely nuts - that's not even a herring, that's a friggin' red whale.

Yes, I do think that Iraq has significant differences from post WWII Japan. One of the ways we facilitated the transition to democracy in Japan was to co-opt the Emporer ... not exactly an option in Iraq. Even more than Germany and Italy, Japan was a country for centuries before their defeat - not an artificial conglomeration of competing and outright hostile ethnic/religous groups.

Look, Mike, the "don't worry, be happy, eat Big Macs and drink Starbucks" scenarios sound really great. Unfortunately, they fly in the face of reality.

[Mike AI]

PD - I am not argueing the fact that it may be very difficult, and there will be some times where it looks ugly. But if we continue to push, we will overcome.... Democracy, free market economics, its going to spread everywhere.... it is the natural human condition!

I heard somethings about an hour ago on TV, there are some people who are compairing what we could do in the middle east is leading to a "perestroika" for the middle east. More of their citizens have bee educated in the west, with reality of TV, Sat and the Net, information cannot be held back anymore.... Leaders will not be able to use religion and ignorance to control the masses....

Come on PD - we are in agreement - I am willing to support this country to support the President so we can be successful - and not bail out when it gets a little tough. ( dems are already slamming the President, saying he is acting unilaterally ( which is bullshit - jsut cause france, germany and russia are against it there are 40+ countries who support us).

[PornoDoggy]

I guess, Mike, I see more dangers going down this road than you do. I haven't owned a set of rose-colored glasses since the mid-70s, and ain't about to put them back on now. The path I see this country going down will do it no good in the future, IMHO.

And perhaps the fact that China, France, Germany, and Russia oppose us on this seems of little consequence to you, but I still think that the pointing to the support of these 40 countries is a lot like claiming you've got the "support of the Americas" when every country in the hemisphere EXCEPT the United States supports an idea. It's an abject failure of our foreign policy team.

I really, really, really want to be wrong on this one.

[Mike AI]

I really, really, really want to be wrong on this one.


Don't worry PD, you will be. :D :P

[PornoDoggy]

Hey, I've been wrong about that region before.

In the late 70s a very liberal friend of mine was just overjoyed to see the Shah overthrown, and as we watched developments over there he assured me that there was nothing to worry about - the Iranian people were far too sophisticated to fall for Islamic fundamentalism, and that it was a phase that would blow over. I was a defeatist about that too.

Oh, wait ... that wasn't it.

Well, there was the time when I was younger that my Uncle and my Dad assured me that there was no way a bunch of pissant little gooks could stand up to American air power and keep supplying those troops in the ....

Well, shit.

I'm sure you're right Mike. The problem I got is that what I'm hearing out of far too many people these days sound more like stuff from the mouth of Bismark stuck in a George M. Cohen musical.

I mean, what have we got to worry about? We won so well in Afghanistan, right? Why, I'll bet we control 20% of the country over there - in the daylight, anyway. Who ever heard of the Afghani's, once defeated, causing problems for a major power? We've got a whole 9,000 U.S. troops still in Afghanistan, so there's nothing to worry about, right? Good thing this isn't the 60s and 70s - 9,000 of today's troops must be more than equal to a half-million running around in a country the fifth of the size of Afghanistan.

I am not now, nor have I ever been afraid of a defeat by the Iraqi military forces. I'm not afraid of losing the war - I'm afraid of losing the peace.

[Mike AI]

Well PD if it makes you feel any better, we did lose the peace in 1991 in Iraq.... Hence us having to go back in. I think this time we will learn our lesson, and prepaired to do what it takes to stabilize the whole region for however long it takes.

The key will be to convince the arabs that we are not conquerers.... its a tough sell, they have been being brainwashed for years that the West wants to go on a Crusade to destroy Islam and Arabs.

So far so good in Afganistan... is it perfect? Nope but we have about 8,000 troops there - which is less then we still have in the Kosovo region.

[gigi]

Just a tidbit of info....

Although Canada hasn't afforded troops for the war against Iraq, it has sent troops to Afghanistan to free up some American troops for the Iraq war.....

So there are Canadian troops in Afghanistan as well.....

[Torone]

Originally posted by gigi@Mar 16 2003, 01:29 PM
Just a tidbit of info....

Although Canada hasn't afforded troops for the war against Iraq, it has sent troops to Afghanistan to free up some American troops for the Iraq war.....

So there are Canadian troops in Afghanistan as well.....
Actually, there are more than a few really good Canadians. Unfortunately, there are a few like Cretin and Alex...but then we have those like Pd and Todd, LOL! :nyanya: