Alex And America. Hate It Or Love It?

[Almighty Colin]

Alex,

Last week I posted that you are anti-American. I would like to think that I was wrong earlier this week and that you are not anti-American, that there is not an anti-American agenda behind all those posts. After posting those comments however, I have read more people think the same thing as I and wonder why. I can see that many people are of the opinion that you hate America. It is easy to come to that impression after reading the full weight of all your posts over the years.

You're a nice guy. I've known you for many years. You're always very friendly in person. Maybe you could clarify this for everyone. I mean this in the most friendly way.

[cj]

I can see that many people are of the opinion that you hate America.

of these 'many people' colin, how many of them would be american?

the majority of american's don't like to hear how their country is viewed by outsiders unless its all perfect and rosy. for those of us who are not american, we see very clearly why you can't get the world to co-operate with you, and we have an entirely different view based on the different propaganda we've been fed over our lifetime.

Colin, you are one of the most intelligent and inspirational people I've come across and I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but when it comes to the discussions you've had with alex there's still a big chunk of arrogant american ego there that prevents you from accepting alex's opinion and analyzing it the way you do everything else.

You can't see it as black and white when your discussing the 'details' ...

for america
anti america

if you have an opinion different to america you are automatically anti american?

in many of the political discussions alex was called a moron for perfectly valid points ... and it was american's who were simply done with discussing the facts and instead resorted to 'moron' and 'your anti american'

I consider myself 'for america' ... because the big picture makes this the most beneficial position to be in. And because I think Sadam is a dumb fuck who should be dead already. Would you consider that because I don't agree with many of the "americanism's" you try to have us believe are fact that I am anti american?

I think its a shame that alex resorted to a lawyer to solve a discussion, but you carried on like such a bunch of meatheads he probably got sick of repeating himself and being called a moron for every non 'usa ass kissing comment'.

oops, now i've made a comment 'for alex' ... does that make me 'anti colin'?

[Almighty Colin]

CJ,

"American ego"? I think you misunderstand me. I don't think the US is the best country or the most moral or the most right but it is MY country and it is the best for me.

Criticism of American policy or it's admininistration is fine. I myself don't need to hear "rosy things" about America. I've read many thoughtful criticisms of many people on particular American policies both from within it's borders and from non-citizens. I am not at all naive or blind and very well understand the views of those that don't cooperate with the US and why. I even UNDERSTAND why some in the world celebrated when planes crashed into our twin towers on September 11, 2001. I understand the role of American hegemony in the Middle East and why so many people there are opposed to America's policies and the continual cycle it helps to perpetuate. I promise you there is no "American ego" here. You will have to excuse me though if I tire of someone continually thrashing my America the Beautiful, the land that *I* love. I understand these things but if one wants to bring it up over and over again, expect me to defend against it.

Any of the particular conversations Alex has brought up would be fine if isolated. In fact, many of his points are interesting to hear. However, it seems to me and to many others that he has a long-term pattern of pointing out "what is wrong with America". One is responsible for one's overall pattern of behavior and one should not be surprised if the totality of criticism of America, it's policies and it's people eventually leads some of us Americans to surmise that person is anti-American in principle.

Yeah, some people will be insulted if you continually bash their country or hate it - especially if you don't live there. As I stated earlier, I do not believe America to be the most right, the most moral, or above all others. However, she is mine and I am hers. Again, if one wants to continually attack her in a public forum, I will defend her in that public forum. It does eventually get tiresome to hear. What is someone's GOAL in what I see as continually taking jabs at America, it's citizens and it's policies?

I am very open to the fact that my interpretation is incorrect. I have been pondering this for days. I have been wondering whether I jumped to conclusions or was being unfair. Then yesterday, I read the comments of others who come to the same conclusions as I. I wondered why. "Might we all might be jumping the gun?", I thought. Maybe. Are we unfairly judging
Alex? Maybe. I started this thread to ask him to clarify that and clear up any misconceptions. I do mean it in the most friendly way. If he can clarify this for all those who think the same thing, he can. I will say that I know why I have thought what I do - he has this pattern of continually pointing out what is wrong with America. If he continues with the "what is wrong with America" posts, quotes, jabs, some of us Americans posting here will continue to be annoyed with it.

I am surprised that you said "American ego". I defend my country yet I don't attack his. I never have and I never will attack Canada, insult it's citizens, it's government, or it's way of life. On principle, I would not continually criticize Canadians, Australians, or Dutch especially if I shared time in a public forum with them.

"Anti-American". It's relative, isn't it? Alex is in Canada commenting on America and after a long time it has finally rubbed me the wrong way. I think we all understand why some black people feel it is ok to call another black person "nigger" but not ok for a white person to do it. Similar thing. A white person CAN call a black person "nigger" but expect to get your ass beaten and don't be surprised when it happens.

I meant what I said. "[Alex,]You're a nice guy. I've known you for many years. You're always very friendly in person. Maybe you could clarify this for everyone. I mean this in the most friendly way."



Last edited by Colin at Feb 27 2003, 08:01 AM

[Sword]

I think the whole "american ego" thing is a misinterpretation, probably due to the feelings the rest of the world has towards America because America is perceived to be the "#1" country in the world, in many ways. IE the most financially powerful and militarily, basically the only real superpower left in the modern world. True or not, that is how many around the world perceive America, and that makes America a target of a little jealousy/envy/desire to see it "knocked down a notch or two" etc.

It is much like when watching a sporting event, and the heavily favored team that is winning easily is considered arrogant and the audience kind of resents them and roots for the underdog. Are they really arrogant or is it other people's own insecurities or feelings that causes them to resent the winning team?

I see that in CJ's post. I don't see Colin having any "American Ego" at all. In fact I used to think he was a part of the "blame America first" crowd because of some of his other comments. I absolutely disagree that Colin has an "American Ego" or is not open minded and listening to both sides.

Instead, what I see, is an assumption of "american ego" because of people's underlying feelings resulting from percieving the USA as the top dog, the arrogant winning team, a basic (and probably subconscious) feeling of envy/resentment for anyone not a "part" of that winning team.

Now non-americans first reaction to that statement would probably be that it is just more "american ego". Well it isn't, it is the basic psychology of class envy or in this case country envy. I seriously doubt there is much more "america ego" than there is "australia ego" or "canada ego" or "isreal ego" or any other country. Most everyone is very proud of the country they live in, but because America is considered the "#1" country around the world by many, that same amount of pride in one's country is considered overly zealous "ego" and arrogance much the same as the winning team in sports is considered arrogant when they celebrate.

I think it has much more to do with the psychology of other's, than it does with American's behaviour. Yes Americans can certainly be arrogant, as can any countries residents. But most Americans will agree that this country is seriously fucked in MANY ways.

I'll certainly say that America is fucked up in MANY MANY ways. There is so much wrong in this country, that it staggers the mind at times. I have no problem saying that. That being said, I still think America is a great place to live!



Last edited by Sword at Feb 27 2003, 08:25 AM

[cj]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 27 2003, 07:52 AM
You will have to excuse me though if I tire of someone continually thrashing my America the Beautiful, the land that *I* love. I understand these things but if one wants to bring it up over and over again, expect me to defend against it.
And here is where our view of the original situation differs. Your country isn't being thrashed ... it never has been by alex and the fact that you've interpreted it that way is disappointing. It certainly makes me less interested in bringing my opinions on this situation to this board - because you jump on every comment from a foreigner as anti american.

your nigger comparison was a good one. your saying we are a different race and therefore we have no right to say anything that isn't positive about your 'race'? plllft


Yeah, some people will be insulted if you continually bash their country or hate it - especially if you don't live there. As I stated earlier, I do not believe America to be the most right, the most moral, or above all others. However, she is mine and I am hers. Again, if one wants to continually attack her in a public forum, I will defend her in that public forum. It does eventually get tiresome to hear. What is someone's GOAL in what I see as continually taking jabs at America, it's citizens and it's policies?


taking jabs?!??!
the discussion was going along fine until it got personal. don't confuse the political discussion with the personal element that started to be evident when it 'got tiresome to hear'.

I am very open to the fact that my interpretation is incorrect. I have been pondering this for days. I have been wondering whether I jumped to conclusions or was being unfair. Then yesterday, I read the comments of others who come to the same conclusions as I.

How many of those who commented were american? you are validating your judgement using the american audience of oprano? LOL

I do mean it in the most friendly way. If he can clarify this for all those who think the same thing, he can. I will say that I know why I have thought what I do - he has this pattern of continually pointing out what is wrong with America. If he continues with the "what is wrong with America" posts, quotes, jabs, some of us Americans posting here will continue to be annoyed with it.

ha! take your tongue out of your cheek when you say 'friendly' because this was far from intended as a friendly chat about alex's opinions, especially with the last sentence which is basically an outline of what he isn't allowed to talk about or he might 'annoy' you. is this a new form of censorship? gang up on the minority to prevent them from being allowed to express an opinion?

I am surprised that you said "American ego". I defend my country yet I don't attack his. I never have and I never will attack Canada, insult it's citizens, it's government, or it's way of life. On principle, I would not continually criticize Canadians, Australians, or Dutch especially if I shared time in a public forum with them.

yeah right!! you've never made a 'blame canada' joke?!??!? i see more canada insults being thrown around on this board than american ones. but that's right, only a nigga can call a nigga a nigga.

"Anti-American". It's relative, isn't it? Alex is in Canada commenting on America and after a long time it has finally rubbed me the wrong way. I think we all understand why some black people feel it is ok to call another black person "nigger" but not ok for a white person to do it. Similar thing. A white person CAN call a black person "nigger" but expect to get your ass beaten and don't be surprised when it happens.

so non american's are only welcome here as long as we talk with the utmost respect for america at all times even when the country is blatantly behaving like a jerk, and even when you are insulting your own country ... until you feel like beating our asses? are you sure this is not just a case of getting your back up UNNECESSARILY?! uh huh

I doubt if alex will be back colin, especially not to justify himself to a mob that's ready to jump him if he gives any of his real opinions.
He wasn't the only one who noticed that he had NO chance of defending himself in any of the discussions.

[cj]

Sword, your post was so full of ego I don't think it needs a response ... do you really believe the rest of the world is jealous of you?

are you really that egotistical?

i already know the answer to that!

IE the most financially powerful and militarily, basically the only real superpower left in the modern world. True or not, that is how many around the world perceive America, and that makes America a target of a little jealousy/envy/desire to see it "knocked down a notch or two" etc.


the only real superpower left in the modern world?

*rolling eyes*

how can I possibly compete with cnn brain fog.

[Sharpie]

Oh, we are serious again this morning!

and I think that is part of what Alex points out. Often we are 'so very full of our selves that we beat our chests all the time. It then makes it humorous for a non american to point out things that are wrong, or hypicritical within our system. ..... and we all know there is plenty to find. That is the great thing about America.... we can fly our flag proudly, and talk about our short commings at the same time. Very often tounge - in- cheek.

Alex - anti- american - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Alex liking to make fun of us from time to time..... every chance he gets! We give him plenty of ammo. :huh:

Does this subject deserve a thread? I don't think so.

[Sword]

Damn CJ, breathe in and out a little.

Everything I said in my post, I prefaced with the word percieve. I did not say those things are facts of America, I said many percieve it that way. Go back and read it again, maybe it won't fly over your head the second time around. :)

It is one of the most basic aspects of human psychology for people to want to see the "top dog" as percieved, knocked down a few pegs. If you are trying to deny that most of the world views america as the most powerful country, then you are in extreme denial.

Never did I say I think america is some great perfect land that all should be jealous of. I stated a basic fact about the human psyche.



Last edited by Sword at Feb 27 2003, 10:06 AM

[Vick]

I have an American Ego and am proud of it and I am proud of America and proud to be an American, even with all the challenges we face
I believe that America is the finest country in the world, that's not to say any other people or country are beneath or not equal to America

It has been expressed better than I can how tired we are as American's of hearing our country bashed
We all saw celebrations in the street by other human beings over the death of Americans on 9/11

What I have never understood (even with Sword's analogy) is why other countries would not try to emulate America to some degree, to enjoy the basic freedoms and financial prosperity that America enjoys.
Is there any country we as American's have not helped when called upon?

America has open doors to the world, we are the great melting pot.
Millions of people immigrated to America during the last century in search of a better life. When and why did that change?
When did America go from being the place to find your dreams to being the country to denigrate?
American's are truly citizens of the world with people and aspects from every culture

And like all great Empires some day America will fall

[RawAlex]

Colin, let me just start out by saying that even the question you ask is so loaded as to not deserve a reply. "Hate it or love it" implies that either I am in or I am out. No abilty to love some of it, hate some of it, and feel nothing about most of it.

I don't have that black and white view of my own country, so why should I have it about yours?

Sorry, your question is yet again (as CJ pointed out) another dull attempt to get me to post up an opinion you don't like, so that you can attack the person, not the idea. That is what most world events / political / international discussions have come down to here, and honestly, it's dull as white toast no butter.

More importantly, I am saddened when I receive email from people who use to post "opposing" views that have stopped because they too have become tired of being the "whipping boy" (or is that "whipping person"?) for the mob.

Ideas are like children, inbreeding makes them dumber - the less people in the idea gene pool, the more likely you are to be discussing self-serving nonsense.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:48 AM
Sorry, your question is yet again (as CJ pointed out) another dull attempt to get me to post up an opinion you don't like, so that you can attack the person, not the idea.
Let me repeat ,,,

You're a nice guy. I've known you for many years. You're always very friendly in person. Maybe you could clarify this for everyone. I mean this in the most friendly way.

I am very open to the fact that my interpretation is incorrect. I have been pondering this for days. I have been wondering whether I jumped to conclusions or was being unfair.

[RawAlex]

Colin, the answer to your question won't be found here... it is found by going back and carefully reading past discussions and looking at what was said... keep a little scorecard, and track how many times an idea is discussed, and how many times that the person posting the idea is instead attacked personally. Run your scorecard and then come back and report. If you are really truthful in your question, the answers are there in the pixels.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 27 2003, 09:09 AM
yeah right!! you've never made a 'blame canada' joke?!??!?
No, I have never made an anti-Canadian remark in my entire life nor would I. Why are you saying that? This board is searchable.

[spanno]

I am not anti-american I hate everyone!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 27 2003, 09:09 AM
your nigger comparison was a good one. your saying we are a different race and therefore we have no right to say anything that isn't positive about your 'race'? plllft


CJ,

It is a comparison in the sense of attempting to show that one situation is like another psychologically and socially. The comparison is between the feelings of critique from "out group" vs. "in group", not at all between race and country of citizenship. I am not at all comparing or equating race or religion or nationality or citizenship.

You are right. It is only Americans that are feeling this way. I don't think anyone from Kazakhstan is thinking the same thing for obvious reasons.

The whole point of the thread is:

1. I feel a certain way. I question that.
2. Others feels that way. Why?
3. There are reasons why we feel that way. Here are some I can think of and can gleen from reading the posts of others.
4. I may be wrong.
5. Let's have a dialogue and discuss that.

Alex can say "Yes, I hate America and here is the problem with America and fuck you".

He can say "Colin and others, I cannot at all understand why any of you Americans think I am 'anti-American'. I am confused as to why you might think that"

He can say "Colin and others, I think I know why you might think that and please let me clarify. You have only misunderstood me and it is a simpel misunderstanding.".

He can say "I don't care what you think. It's not important to me".

He can just ignore it and not discuss or feel that I am being dishonest in my thread. I'm telling you I am interested and have been thinking for a few days and have wondered if I have jumped to conclusions. I have been thinking about how to address that and maybe admit I was wrong. In the meantime, other people (ok, yes. Americans) have come to the same conclusions so that got me wondering back the other way.

I am honest in my intentions. You can hold that to me later and call me a liar if I am not. I am not attempting to set a trap or any such thing.

[Almighty Colin]

Another example. If I were to say "most women are stupid".

[which is NOT at ALL true FOR THE RECORD and anyone that later suggests this is not an example solely for demonstrating a point is not paying attention. Women ARE incredibly intelligent.]

a woman might feel insulted even if she is the brightest woman on the planet. In one sense, I didn't insult her. In another I did. One should understand that. She very well might feel that way and I should know that. She might respond in a not-so-kind way. I understand that too.

Why do many of us feel differently about a man saying "most women are bitches" than if a woman says "most women are bitches". If a man says "women are stupid" in front of Amanda, I am going to say something about it to them (right after they are separated, of course.)

[Again, so that there are no misunderstandings later. Women are awesome, beautiful, and intelligent].

I am not at all trying to stop anyone from saying anything. I am saying one should not be surprised at the reaction. If I make a sexist comment in front of a woman I expect that they might slug me. If someone makes anti-Canadian comments in front of a group of Canadians, they might expect the same. If someone makes a racist comment to a Native American they might stay the same.

I don't want anyone to be sensitive about anything. I'm not complaining. I'm only defending.

[PornoDoggy]

I'm racking my brain to remember the news footage of Canadians dancing in the streets to celebrate the attack on 9/11 and I just can't picture it.

CJ - you are nicer than I. When someone tries to explain international attitudes and dismiss international disagreements with sports team analogies and high school psychology, I tend to ignore them completely.

I've read Alex's posts. I disagree with some of what Alex says and agree with other things Alex says. Dismissing this war as "all about oil" is no more or less wrong than assuming France is resisting U.S. action only because of "oil and secret deals." Suggesting that the United States pay more attention to international opinion when one of the reasons it's using to justify this war is to "ensure the relevance of the United Nations" doesn't seem like a rabid antiAmerican sentiment to me. The gas-sucking SUV stuff is no less a gross oversimplification than suggesting that the war in Iraq will affect alQaida.

But Alex as "Anti-American"? Not IMHO, not by a long shot. Hell, I've been accused on the boards of being anti-American by some of the "Bobble Heads for Bush" and other "Liberals are Traitors" morons. Alex, I think you're being a little thin-skinned; you're taking some of this far too personally and far too seriously.

I may not like what he says. I may not agree with what he says. But I don't see the rabid antiAmerican sentiment that others seem to read into it.

[RawAlex]

Alex can say "Yes, I hate America and here is the problem with America and fuck you".


Colin, there's the rub: Your basic assumption (personal armor, as it were) is that if I find a problem with america, then I hate ALL of america.

That is the same as saying "I don't like eating liver, so I will be a vegan".

You are assuming that any time someone says something bad (and often very truthful) about America, that they are dissing the whole of america, that they want to kill americans, that america is bad.

VICK SAID:
It has been expressed better than I can how tired we are as American's of hearing our country bashed We all saw celebrations in the street by other human beings over the death of Americans on 9/11

This here is the problem - in a discussion of "do I like or hate america" the spectre of people (idiots, IMHO) dancing in the streets after 9/11 is brought up. In a very clear way, it is suggested that if I disagree with a policy of your government (or heck, the color of taxis in New York), that I must be on the other side, and the other side celebrated 9/11, and therefore I am an American bashing moron.

What choices do I have? Koolaid or death? Not very good choices.

Alex

[Mike AI]

I was going to post, but everyone knows that I have a HUGE American EGO!


USA USA USA USA !!!!


The sad fact is that most canadiens know the US is better in all ways, so they have a chip on their shoulder and make as many snide comments as they can squeeze in.

Its like being the incapable older brother who did ok in school, did not have many friends, the the US comes along, as the younger brother - does great in school, has all kinds of friends, plays all the sports, goes on to college on a scholarship and becomes a successful and powerful CEO - who has to end up helping his incapable older brother for ever....

Of course their is going to be animosity..... but hey, its ok, we still love Alex, and Canada!!

[Mike AI]

Hey here is one of our incapable older brothers ( err I mean Canadians) speaking now

http://cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/26/bastards030226

[spanno]

I don't trust americans they are too tall

[Vick]

Gentlemen I am being taken a little of out context here
in no way did I equate the news footage of dancing in the streets to celebrate the attack on 9/11 with Canadians
I did give the example of the celebration of the deaths of Americans as an extreme example of American bashing

Beyond that I am guilty of Canadian bashing, I did it just the other day to the extent of if Canadians don't like what the US is going to do they should stay out of our business and do the things they do well

Further I have had the pleasure of meeting Raw Alex in person on a few occasions. Alex, in person is very bright, intelligent, personable and a good conversationalist (in addition to knowing the where the best bars are)

However over the past few years (and I will say it is lesser now as Alex often tempers his statements to include the Western Hemisphere) Alex has perhaps come across with sentiments that could be seen as questioning America and the frequency and perhaps intent of these statements could be seen as somewhat anti-american

As for ideas and concepts discussed here, maybe it is Darwinism and the weak ideas and concepts die out. If an idea or concept is strong enough when presented to intelligent minds even of opposition the idea would be received/stand on it's own merits

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 12:21 PM
Hey here is one of our incapable older brothers ( err I mean Canadians) speaking now

http://cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/26/bastards030226
Mike, should I then touch on Rev Falwell refering to one of the teletubbies as "gay"? Or suggesting that the actions of a past president lead to an "epidemic of orl sex in our highschools"?

One person don't make a country... no matter how wide the brush you want to use.

:(

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 12:07 PM
This here is the problem - in a discussion of "do I like or hate america" the spectre of people (idiots, IMHO) dancing in the streets after 9/11 is brought up. In a very clear way, it is suggested that if I disagree with a policy of your government (or heck, the color of taxis in New York), that I must be on the other side, and the other side celebrated 9/11, and therefore I am an American bashing moron.

Alex,

That is CLEAR? Shouldn't be because it was not my intention. From my point of view (as the writer), the comment was meant in response to CJ's post and not in reference to anything you have said. I was defending myself against what CJ termed my "arrogant american ego".

The examples were meant to show that I do understand these things. The dancing in the streets comment referred to Arabs living in the West Bank that celebrated in the streets the events of 9/11. I understand why they felt that way. Not people dancing in Canada. Huh, PornoDoggy?

=======

Separately, my perception has been that your posts, your choice of articles to link to and your use of language over the years leads you to criticize America first and ask questions later. That
it is more important for you to point out what is wrong about America and how it isn't what it claims to be than anything else.

Am I wrong? What do you really think? Again, as stated above, I may be wrong. I am open to that.

A separate question. Why have others (Americans as Cj has pointed out) come to the same conclusion. Are we all stupid? Have you not been careful in your words? Are we oversensitive? Are we right?

That's what I am asking. Whether you choose to answer or not is your business.

[JR]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 09:21 AM
Hey here is one of our incapable older brothers ( err I mean Canadians) speaking now

http://cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/26/bastards030226
thats pretty comical.

she said:
"Damn Americans … I hate those bastards."

then she said:
her comments "do not reflect her opinion of the American people."

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 12:20 PM
hey, its ok, we still love Alex, and Canada!!
Yes, same here. For all the craziness the past week, I stick to how I started this post:

"[Alex,] You're a nice guy. I've known you for many years. You're always very friendly in person. Maybe you could clarify this for everyone. I mean this in the most friendly way. "

I do mean that.

And CJ, Jesus. I could say nice things about her until the end of time. I'll just save this space because she has heard them all from me before.

I have never and never will say anything bad about Canada nor Australia.

[RawAlex]

As for ideas and concepts discussed here, maybe it is Darwinism and the weak ideas and concepts die out. If an idea or concept is strong enough when presented to intelligent minds even of opposition the idea would be received/stand on it's own merits


No Vick, I have to disagree - it isn't strong idea / weak idea - but rather us / them at work. As mentioned, too many of the discussions sink to "your a moron" or "your on drugs" rather than discussing the idea. The presenter of the idea is belittled, not the idea.

That's why I won't discuss it or go into details - every word I use is being used as proof that I am a moron, not that my ideas are good or bad. That is very sad indeed... you know, sooner or later, everyone will have the same opinion... because anyone with a different opinion will do what I (and many before me) have done... stop talking about it.

Colin, how's that scorecard coming on past discussions? Any news to report?

Alex

[Mike AI]

Actually Alex, I do not know one Canadian who is supporting the US in the war against Iraq ( MUTT) .... not that I know many of them, just the ones in the business....

Oh and Vick I agree with you, Alex is a great guy.... one of the real sincere people in this industry.

[Almighty Colin]

Re: Saddam Hussein interview last night. He was more respectful of the United States and American leadship than many leaders of other countries. A world-class politician; despite what is obvious. No one should ever understimate his intelligence.

"Mr. Bush"

[Vick]

Alex by that logic could we say minds with interesting, bright ideas and concepts can and will be beaten down by minds that have to sink to to "your a moron" or "your on drugs" rather than discussing/debating the idea?

he he he Sorry I couldn't resist :P

[Peaches]

Originally posted by spanno@Feb 27 2003, 01:25 PM
I don't trust americans they are too tall
Not me!! :bwave:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 12:20 PM
I was going to post, but everyone knows that I have a HUGE American EGO!


USA USA USA USA !!!!


The sad fact is that most canadiens know the US is better in all ways, so they have a chip on their shoulder and make as many snide comments as they can squeeze in.

Its like being the incapable older brother who did ok in school, did not have many friends, the the US comes along, as the younger brother - does great in school, has all kinds of friends, plays all the sports, goes on to college on a scholarship and becomes a successful and powerful CEO - who has to end up helping his incapable older brother for ever....

Of course their is going to be animosity..... but hey, its ok, we still love Alex, and Canada!!
What I said earlier about amateur psychology stands. I don't think Alex is reacting out of some international sibling rivalry in any way, shape or form. I understand that trivializing it as such has a certain appeal to those adverse to thinking, or who require a "least common denominator" in order to grasp something; but that doesn't make it anything remotely resembling a valid theory to be given a moment's thought by a thinking person.

Look - there are a great many AMERICANS who feel as Alex does. There are a great many AMERICANS who worry that Bush Administration ties to the oil industry are in part motivating them toward this war. There are a great many AMERICANS who find the Bush Administration attempts to link Iraq to AlQaida shallow at best. There are a great many AMERICANS who find Bush Administration claims of concern for the credibilty of the United Nations more of a stretch than can be made with comfort. There are a great many AMERICANS who find the heavy-handed conduct of foreign policy the Bush Adminstration to be absurd, ill-advised, and counterproductive in the long run.

Hell's bells, I've got some concerns about all of the above, and I'm for this fucking war!!! So Alex, don't take all of the charges of "anitAmericanism" too seriously. Some of them are actually pretty funny.

[Almighty Colin]

Alex, it would be a lot easier for you to just explain how you really feel than for me to sort through your 516 posts and then for us to have all the same arguments about them once again with more name-calling and threats and threatened lawsuits. You are being curiously evasive regarding my question as to your thoughts.

------------------------- I repeat:

"My perception has been that your posts, your choice of articles to link to and your use of language over the years leads you to criticize America first and ask questions later. That
it is more important for you to point out what is wrong about America and how it isn't what it claims to be than anything else.

Am I wrong? What do you really think? Again, as stated above, I may be wrong. I am open to that.

A separate question. Why have others (Americans as Cj has pointed out) come to the same conclusion. Are we all stupid? Have you not been careful in your words? Are we oversensitive? Are we right?

That's what I am asking. Whether you choose to answer or not is your business."

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 27 2003, 01:04 PM
What I said earlier about amateur psychology stands. I don't think Alex is reacting out of some international sibling rivalry in any way, shape or form.
Why do YOU think Alex is reacting in "such a way", PD?

[RawAlex]

Colin, let me give you a hint that will help you on your quest...

Try to seperate these two things:

"Dislikes of america"

"Dislikes of some american policies / procedures"

Your assumption (and that of many of your fellow Americans) is that anyone who disagrees with your commander in chief is bashing America. Anyone who points out some of contridictions that the American Constitution brings is anti-american. Most importantly, anyone who doesn't think the American system is the best ever is ant-American.

Things are rarely all or nothing... attempting to find a yes no answer isn't going to work out.

Alex

Oh yeah, just because you ask, do you realize that almost all of the articles and links I post come from american publications, american websites, written by american people? Most of them came from CNN, Drudge, foxnews, etc... The questions come from within, not from the outside.

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 12:45 PM
Actually Alex, I do not know one Canadian who is supporting the US in the war against Iraq ( MUTT) .... not that I know many of them, just the ones in the business....

Oh and Vick I agree with you, Alex is a great guy.... one of the real sincere people in this industry.
Mike, I have stated before, and I will state again: Saddam needs to go.

Needs to go today, unilaterally, without the support of the UN is a seperate issue. When the time is right, the support for a war on Iraq is there.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 01:32 PM
[You think] anyone who doesn't think the American system is the best ever is ant-American.



Here we go again. You not only read between the lines, you insert paragraphs between the simple sentences.

I said earlier today in this same thread:

"I don't think the US is the best country or the most moral or the most right but it is MY country and it is the best for me."




Last edited by Colin at Feb 27 2003, 01:40 PM

[Mike AI]

Please Alex, the UN is history....

They are interfering with OUR National Soverignty. Last I checked the leader of the UN does not take an oath to protect the citizens of the US, he does not take an oath to support and defend the Constitution.

Only BUSH has taken this Oath!

Any American who trusts and relies upon the UN to look after OUR best interst is truly delisional!!

The democrats here in the US are only pushing the UN to try and hurt Bush, to counteract Bush. The democrats know what the UN is all about....

Fuck the UN. We need to withdraw and boot them from NY - they are wasting too much valuable real estate!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Feb 27 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Feb 27 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 12:20 PM
Alex, don't take all of the charges of "anitAmericanism" too seriously. Some of them are actually pretty funny.[/b][/quote]
I don't think I've ever used this smiley before but ... :nyanya:

[PornoDoggy]

I'm not reading the kind of childish, petulant, lowbrow sentiments from Alex that I am reading from a great many people on the opposing side regarding other nations - I mean, really - "Freedom Fries"? What a friggin' joke.

Much of the language in Alex's posts suggests a traditional liberal understanding of issues (i.e., the rants about gas-guzzling SUVs and the like). I don't find major distinctions between his language and any traditional American liberal - not that there are many kicking around these parts.

With regard to the war specifically, it's obvious that he feels U.S. foreign policy is motivated by oil. Again, it's the position taken by some on the American left. I question the validity of that opinion - I think its a superficial read. I don't think it's any more or less superficial than the idea that war with Iraq will in any way materially affect alQaida, or that American defeat of the Saddam Hussein regime will create some wonderful "city on a hill" that will cause peace, democracy, and free markets to break out across the Middle East, and "scare" terrorists out of attacking the U.S. and its allies.

As an example, he's taking the approach that some American liberals are - the "Iraq=oil=war; N Korea=no oil=no war" theory. I think that's an oversimplification. It fails to recognize that Saddam has been thumbing his nose at the world for 13 years now. It also fails to appreciate the tactical problems presented by the N Korean scenario that cause it to be far more of a problem (if not in fact a "lose - lose" situation) than Saddam is - as is evidenced by the quiet, low-key, diplomatic approach the Bush Administration is taking.

So essentially, I don't see Alex's positions as substantially different than that of many people on the American left. Now, if you want to go the moron route and suggest that any American who does not unquestioningly support the tactics and policies of the Bush Administration is a traitor, then I guess you can conclude Alex is anti-American. Otherwise, at least the way I read it, it's wrong to consider what he's been posting as somehow anti-American.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 01:37 PM
Please Alex, the UN is history....

They are interfering with OUR National Soverignty. Last I checked the leader of the UN does not take an oath to protect the citizens of the US, he does not take an oath to support and defend the Constitution.

Only BUSH has taken this Oath!

Any American who trusts and relies upon the UN to look after OUR best interst is truly delisional!!

The democrats here in the US are only pushing the UN to try and hurt Bush, to counteract Bush. The democrats know what the UN is all about....

Fuck the UN. We need to withdraw and boot them from NY - they are wasting too much valuable real estate!
Explain to me how the U.N. is interfering with America's soverignty, would you?

[PornoDoggy]

"We believe these actions to have been taken in error, for we do not accept the use of force as a wise or proper instrument for the settlement of international disputes."

Who said it, when, and why ...

[Vick]

Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1956 regarding the Suez Canal Crisis

[Mike AI]

PD the UN is trying to interfere with American Soverignity - by telling us we cannot go after Iraq. Of course they cannot stop us, and will not stop us. The United States must do what it can to defend our citizens. The war on terrorism, and those who support them will go on. The UN will continue to try and tie our hands, but Bush understand this - and will not allow it to happen.

Bush is the Soverign leader of the US, he answers only to Congress, US Judicery, and ther American people - not to koffi anniman, or any other goon at the UN.

The UN is a faliure, their policies have always been failures....

[RawAlex]

Pornodoggy, oil isn't the ONLY issue... but it changes alot of the options on the ground. The current Bush Administration has even admitted this fact. (I saw this on CNN today, less than an hour ago). I don't "rant" about gas guzzling SUVs, I point out that the increased need for oil creates the importance of Arab nations in US policy. SUVs are just a nice "visible" example of the cause... your choices at home does have an effect on the way the world runs. It was my opinion that decreasing demand for oil would have much more positive long term effects than pouring french wine down the drain would.

North Korea has thumbed it nose at the world for over 40 years... How many Americans died in the Korea War (oops, police action... whatever)? Who has weapons of mass destruction? Who is making threats? Who is testing missles with range to reach America?

What's the difference?

Alex

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 02:06 PM
PD the UN is trying to interfere with American Soverignity - by telling us we cannot go after Iraq. Of course they cannot stop us, and will not stop us. The United States must do what it can to defend our citizens. The war on terrorism, and those who support them will go on. The UN will continue to try and tie our hands, but Bush understand this - and will not allow it to happen.
Mike, sorry, but I have to disagree - Iraq isn't an issue of terror on America, heck, Bin Ladin even called Saddam an infidel phony. The link to terrorism was only thrown in at the end to try to create justification for action...

The only proof of terrorists in Iraq wasn't any stronger than the point that there were terrorists living in Buffalo, NY... should an air strike be launched to out the mayor on Buffalo to get rid of the terrorists?

Go back and read the process from the start... terrorism has had nothing to do with this up until the UN members started to say no. Until then, it wasn't even touched on. There are way more terrorists in Pakistan, in Sudan, in Yemen. Why Iraq first?

Alex

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 02:06 PM
PD the UN is trying to interfere with American Soverignity - by telling us we cannot go after Iraq. Of course they cannot stop us, and will not stop us. The United States must do what it can to defend our citizens. The war on terrorism, and those who support them will go on. The UN will continue to try and tie our hands, but Bush understand this - and will not allow it to happen.

Bush is the Soverign leader of the US, he answers only to Congress, US Judicery, and ther American people - not to koffi anniman, or any other goon at the UN.

The UN is a faliure, their policies have always been failures....
So lemme see if I understand you correctly. The UN is "interfering with our soverignty" by "interfering" with our attempt to violate the soverignty of Iraq????? Not following you at all ... it only makes sense if you force it into a preexisting "ugh ... UN SUCKS" mentality.

Not questioning the need to stop Saddam and remove his weapons of mass destruction, Mike. I don't need a lecture on who Bush answers to, either. Trust me, I've heard all this happy horseshit before. I had an Uncle who was a John Bircher in the 50s and 60s. It was lame then, and is even more pathetic now.

[Sword]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 27 2003, 01:04 PM
What I said earlier about amateur psychology stands. I don't think Alex is reacting out of some international sibling rivalry in any way, shape or form. I understand that trivializing it as such has a certain appeal to those adverse to thinking, or who require a "least common denominator" in order to grasp something; but that doesn't make it anything remotely resembling a valid theory to be given a moment's thought by a thinking person.
Yeah it's all "amateur psychology" here Pornodoggy. Is that the best you can do? If we're talking amateurs here, I'm quite certain every one of your opinions ranks as just that. Unless I missed something regarding your qualifications to debate this being any more extensive than the rest of us.

I won't comment on the rest of your stuff, because I didn't bother to read it. Why should I? Apparently the new thing from you is disregarding everything that is posted by an "amateur" on this board, and your posts certainly qualify for that, just like the rest of us.

[gigi]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 01:37 PM
Please Alex, the UN is history....

They are interfering with OUR National Soverignty. Last I checked the leader of the UN does not take an oath to protect the citizens of the US, he does not take an oath to support and defend the Constitution.

Only BUSH has taken this Oath!

Any American who trusts and relies upon the UN to look after OUR best interst is truly delisional!!

The democrats here in the US are only pushing the UN to try and hurt Bush, to counteract Bush. The democrats know what the UN is all about....

Fuck the UN. We need to withdraw and boot them from NY - they are wasting too much valuable real estate!
I like this thread...and I hate this thread. :zoinks:

Mike, as much as I respect you, I must point out that the 'american ego' is absolutely apparent in this post. (although you DID already say you had a good helping of it...hehe)

The complete lack of acknowledging International Issues/Concerns regarding Iraq is, IMHO, why we see 'anti-American' sentiment.

The UN isn't there to uphold the American constitution or American interest. It's there as a voice for the International World....like 'em or hate 'em. Pretending they don't exist won't change the fact that they are very much a real entity, and deserving of an opinion.

On another note...

The jealous sibling rivalry theory doesn't wash with me. I can't deny that the US is 'the' major power in the world right now...and rightfully so.

HOWEVER, it's more like the 'winning team' is someone like Mike Tyson who doesn't care who he hurts, is self-serving and has a 'fuck you' attitude. You aren't jealous of him, nor do you want to BE him, rather you wish he would change his ways and be more thoughtful and respectful in his dealings, because what he does affects more than just himself.

Colin, with all due respect, if I were Alex, I would also see your question as somewhat 'loaded'. I don't think his apprehension to answer is 'curious', but realistic considering his previous experience....and I don't mean his experiences with YOU per se....just with the overall goings-on in the previous threads.

[gigi]

BTW, I do understand Alex's reference to the difference between being Anti-American and being against US policy.

I saw the same thing on another board where someone was accused of spewing 'anti-semitic garbage' when in fact, he was acknowledging his dislike for Israeli policy and Sharon's dealings with Palestinians.

I love America, and everything she stands for.....however that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything her government does. :unsure:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Sword@Feb 27 2003, 03:41 PM
Yeah it's all "amateur psychology" here Pornodoggy. Is that the best you can do? If we're talking amateurs here, I'm quite certain every one of your opinions ranks as just that. Unless I missed something regarding your qualifications to debate this being any more extensive than the rest of us.

I won't comment on the rest of your stuff, because I didn't bother to read it. Why should I? Apparently the new thing from you is disregarding everything that is posted by an "amateur" on this board, and your posts certainly qualify for that, just like the rest of us.
Touchy, touchy, touchy ... and while I may have disagreed with what you said, I didn't get petulant and stop reading what you had to say.

You seem to feel that it's all a matter of jealousy - Mike used the sibling rivalry analogy, and I think you were using the sports team scenario. By that way of thinking, you almost give credence to the morons who say it's all just a question of the American bully flexing his muscles and beating up on small brown people he can get to because he's mad - that would be the "either/or" to your analogy. I would dismiss that as amateur psychology, too, and also call it shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking. And as far as the term "amateur" goes ... when I read lines like "it is the basic psychology of class envy or in this case country envy" the word amateur does pop into mind. Country envy? Puh-leaze!

Yes ... I'm sure that there are some people all across the world who oppose a war with Iraq just because America is pushing for it. They are stupid. There are people in this country who don't know the difference between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, and think the majority of hijackers were Iraqi. They are stupid too. There are lots of stupid people out there.

IMHO, not everyone who thinks the United States is/may be going down a dangererous path here is some immature nitwit responding in some Freudian/Marxist way to all the wonderful things America has that they don't. If the term "amateur psychology" bothers you, I apologize - you know us liberals, we are always sensetive to other peole's feelings.

Allow me to replace it with "shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking."

If that's too many words, try 'BULLSHIT."

[JR]

i posted this in another thread about "what sports teams do you hate", but i feel it applys here too.
------

dont hate.

except you can hate circus clowns. i hate those fuckers. whats with the big feet, the funny nose and those dumb little cars. scary bastards, jumping around throwing shit and hitting each other with pies and honking those fucking horns? and how did they all get into that little car anyways? those dipshits.

if you are gonna hate... hate clowns. then when the clowns form an NBA team that sucks, you can hate them twice. When the clowns start playing good defense and getting more rebounds, you may have to reconsider though.

[OldJeff]

"There are way more terrorists in Pakistan, in Sudan, in Yemen. Why Iraq first?"

From a stratigic stand point - I would say because once Iraq is "occupied" it would be very easy to control the entire middle east.

With troops in Afghanastan and Iraq - Iran - part 2 of the "Axis of Evil" is flanked on both sides - would make is rather easy to walk over them as well.

Pakistan - even though they are a nuclear power has their hand full worrying about a billion people in India that would like to remove them as a country.

Saudi Arabia - will fall right into line once Iraq is under US control (and here is where the oil part comes in) because with what is in Iraq the US could turn off the Saudis Cash cow.

This will not end with Iraq - it is the start of a play to control the middle east

:unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

[cj]

Originally posted by gigi+Feb 27 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gigi @ Feb 27 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 01:37 PM
Please Alex, the UN is history....

They are interfering with OUR National Soverignty. Last I checked the leader of the UN does not take an oath to protect the citizens of the US, he does not take an oath to support and defend the Constitution.

Only BUSH has taken this Oath!

Any American who trusts and relies upon the UN to look after OUR best interst is truly delisional!!

The democrats here in the US are only pushing the UN to try and hurt Bush, to counteract Bush. The democrats know what the UN is all about....

Fuck the UN. We need to withdraw and boot them from NY - they are wasting too much valuable real estate!
I like this thread...and I hate this thread. :zoinks:

Mike, as much as I respect you, I must point out that the 'american ego' is absolutely apparent in this post. (although you DID already say you had a good helping of it...hehe)

The complete lack of acknowledging International Issues/Concerns regarding Iraq is, IMHO, why we see 'anti-American' sentiment.

The UN isn't there to uphold the American constitution or American interest. It's there as a voice for the International World....like 'em or hate 'em. Pretending they don't exist won't change the fact that they are very much a real entity, and deserving of an opinion.

On another note...

The jealous sibling rivalry theory doesn't wash with me. I can't deny that the US is 'the' major power in the world right now...and rightfully so.

HOWEVER, it's more like the 'winning team' is someone like Mike Tyson who doesn't care who he hurts, is self-serving and has a 'fuck you' attitude. You aren't jealous of him, nor do you want to BE him, rather you wish he would change his ways and be more thoughtful and respectful in his dealings, because what he does affects more than just himself.

Colin, with all due respect, if I were Alex, I would also see your question as somewhat 'loaded'. I don't think his apprehension to answer is 'curious', but realistic considering his previous experience....and I don't mean his experiences with YOU per se....just with the overall goings-on in the previous threads.[/b][/quote]
*applause*
a voice of reason!!!




what a joke of a thread
yet another bunch of (the same) americans ganging up on anyone with an opposing opinion and issuing demands to answer your questions. colin, you are still pushing your original point which is 'alex, i demand you answer my loaded question'.

why would anyone want to answer you when you have posts like mike's & vick's come along?

vick gives us a word for word copy of the book that must be issued at birth to americans ... 'defend america with cliched patriotic statements' and mike pops up with his chest beating act.

Big bad UN isn't looking after poor wittle america and instead its considering the effects on the world?!!?! shit 'eh. wasn't that its purpose? so a country like america can't bully their way into controlling every country of the world? is that why you don't like it mike?

why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?
answer me THAT question colin, vick, mike and the rest of you who can't seem to accept opinions of others.

*I* even feel unwelcome and overpowered by the american ego that proceeds to squash every other view point or opinion on this board, and I consider this to be my home. The WORST part of these discussions is that you actually manage to convince each other you are being fair and reasonable ... you constantly repeat phrases like 'dont get me wrong i like you personally' in an attempt to make you appear reasonable to each other. Do you think that as long as you say 'i like you' that you can be as ignorant and rude as you like?

if only your board was welcoming to ALL view points you might have some of the foreign LURKERS posting, who currently are too scared to make a comment for fear of the pack of yanks attacking them personally.

way to have a fair discussion guys ... what a great democracy this is!!

oprano, home of the american ego and fuck all else!!
YEAH!!! now lets go blow something up

[KC]

Don’t' hate the player...

Maybe this is a little more of the "American Ego" but I'll contribute an observation about my trip to Europe in December.

In London I could definitely pick up on the anti-Americanism, it was right underneath the surface. All I had to do was speak with my "American Accent" (we all know they are the ones with the accents) ;). I heard about how:
"Americans are assholes"
"Americans are stupid"
"Americans are brainwashed by CNN"
"George Bush is a scumbag and caused September 11th to happen"

It went on and on... I was constantly amazed at the shit I heard.

I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. I never hear, "The British are assholes", "Australians are this...", “Japanese are this... ". Sure we like to make fun of our Canadian friends to the north every once in a while, but they know deep down we love them! :)

Why is it that America and America's foreign policy matters so much?
Why is it so "cool" to "hate Americans"?

"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $36,300. "

That excerpt was taken from the “CIA World Factbook” (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html). How does it go Webfather, "Numbers I trust, people I don't!"?

If another country was the "largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world", we’d all be talking about how much we hate them. It comes down to jealousy.

I'll admit it, if I were not a US Citizen I would be jealous too!



Last edited by KC at Feb 27 2003, 07:22 PM

[Mike AI]

YEAH!!!!

KC FOR PRESIDENT!!!!


:rokk: :rokk: :wnw: :wnw: :rokk: :rokk:

[slavdogg]

i am jealous of my own Americanized success :D
and all the non believers are infidels






Last edited by slavdogg at Feb 27 2003, 07:49 PM

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by KC@Feb 27 2003, 07:22 PM
If another country was the "largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world", we’d all be talking about how much we hate them. It comes down to jealousy.
You know, I didn't even think of that part of it. Perhaps there are people who assume that people who disagree with American policy have to assume they do so on account of jealousy because that's the kind of petty criteria they would base things on.

Damn. Too many options.

[Vick]

Bravo KC! Well put

CJ - I went back and read the things I posted in this thread - and I sincerely believe in every word I said, it's not propaganda, it's not clichés. For me where I stand today it the honest truth.
It's not in a book handed to you at birth, it's the realizations that come with age and experience

Every nation must do what is best for it's own well being. That's part of the reason the US is having problems with France and the UN. France has decided that it is better for them to support Iraq that to support it's long time ally America. To each their own

"why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?" - maybe to take the opportunity to share their perspective and get a little positive back in return.
The Oprano community is primarily composed of Americans (and a few are chest beaters like myself) but I'd like to think that even as chest beating American's we are not so dense as to discard another's valid viewpoints, perspectives or experiences just because they do not agree with our concepts


and again please understand how tired we are as American's of all the America bashing that goes on - and that does lead to the fuck all attitude
If the shoe was on the other foot I hope citizens of other nations could take all the flack as well as American's have - especially after everything that America has done positive in the last 2 centuries

[cj]

I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. I never hear, "The British are assholes", "Australians are this...", “Japanese are this... ". Sure we like to make fun of our Canadian friends to the north every once in a while, but they know deep down we love them!

LMFAO!!!!

never?
americans never say anything hateful about other countries??

LIES!
HYPOCRICY!

america is the most hateful nation i have had experience with in the western world. your view of yourself is very well jaded!!!

oh that's right, we don't deal in actual facts around here, just the american version.

KC, its obvious from your post that you just skimmed through the thread, and picked a couple of sentences that you could reply with the same old thing ... you have dismissed all views and opinions expressed on this board by latching onto a single point that makes you feel better about the opinions raised about your country. (ie, the jealousy thing)

Have you ever visited my country? I'm FAR from jealous, believe me. The only thing America has that I wish my country had is Junior Mints, but we've got Tim Tams so you really should be jealous of us.


I have free health care
My streets are clean
People don't carry guns
My country folk are loyal and hardworking and friendly
I can flick through 50 cable channels and watch american sitcoms

I received an icq before by a fellow foreigner telling me to chill ... 'they aren't worth worrying about'

This is what those who you scare away with your childish arguments think:

i agree with you btw and am one of those pussy foreigners who just refuses to buy into this...just thought you needed to chill

i don't get into political debates because it's like bashing your head on a brick wall

the saying 'there are none so blind as those that will not see' springs to mind far too often these days on oprano


way to go oprano!!!!
KC for president!!!!
YEAH!!!!

:bjump:

[PornoDoggy]

France is "supporting" Iraq? France did not oppose the reinsertion of Weapons Inspectors as unnecessary. I don't recall the French taking the position that Saddam is a good guy who should be left alone. France is taking a more cautious approach to the use of military force than the U.S. would like. There's a big difference there.

I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. Maybe the Europeans use a few more words (assholes, stupid, brainwashed) to describe Americans than a lot of Americans use to describe Europeans. All I hear from most circles is "pussy." Well, there's "anti-semitic' from one crowd, and "pansy socialists" from another, but mostly it's just "pussy." Do I detect "vocabulary envy?"

I was in Spain and Portugal in the mid 70s, as both countries were coming out of long periods of facist rule - facist governments supported by the United States during the cold war in exchange for base rights; facist governments very much guilty of all the things we accuse Saddam Hussein of today (now that his facist government is no longer useful to us). It was an interesting and exciting time to be there - watching people experience free elections for the first time in 50 or 60 years can give you a better appreciation for some things you tend to take for granted.

Perhaps things have changed in the 30 years since I was there; I don't know. What I found, however, is that there were a few people who hated me for being American. There were an awful lot more who hated a lot of the actions of my government without hating me.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 27 2003, 08:30 PM

[KC]

never?
americans never say anything hateful about other countries??

LIES!
HYPOCRICY!


Actually, if you slow down and re-read, it says we don't spend out days hating other countries! I don't recall saying never. ;)


Have you ever visited my country? I'm FAR from jealous, believe me. The only thing America has that I wish my country had is Junior Mints, but we've got Tim Tams so you really should be jealous of us.


I haven't yet been fortunate enough to have visited Oz, but I'm excited to visit. I know several Aussies and hear it's a beautiful place!!


I have free health care
My streets are clean
People don't carry guns
My country folk are loyal and hardworking and friendly
I can flick through 50 cable channels and watch american sitcoms


Why is it that you watch America sitcoms? The only Aussie TV Shows we get in America are "Crocodile Hunter" and "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here" (Which is a god awful show with has-been American actors, but is in fact based in the Aussie Bush!)

CJ, Don't take it so personally, I consider you an "Honorary American" because you work with so many Americans! When I come visit I'll buy you a pack of Tim Tams and we can get "pissed" drinking Foster's together!!
:stout:

[KC]

Originally posted by slavdogg@Feb 27 2003, 07:47 PM
i am jealous of my own Americanized success :D
and all the non believers are infidels
Slavdogg,

We're all jealous of your success. I think you are the epitome of what makes America great!!

[KC]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 27 2003, 07:30 PM
YEAH!!!!

KC FOR PRESIDENT!!!!


:rokk: :rokk: :wnw: :wnw: :rokk: :rokk:
haha

No way!! I'm too selfish to run for public office!!!

[Dravyk]

I like this thread...and I hate this thread.

Yep this is ... for lack of words ... an "amazing" thread. One which pretty much I'm staying out of as there are land mines everywhere.

I do have to say that I am most interested in reading the opinions of the non-Americans here. I am much more interested in seeing us through their eyes than anything else in this thread.

I've also come away with a greater appreciation for Junior Mints that I had previously. B)

[RawAlex]

Nice to know I ain't so lonely out here... thanks cj, gigi...

The points have all been well made, the comments bang on... the view from inside the US is extremely different from the view outside.

I respect the view from the inside... but I know from what I can see out here that it isn't the common view of the world.

CJ, I live in sort of the same country... relatively clean, health care, not many guns all considered, few murders, safer streets. Commonwealth countries? I don't know if that is the deal... whatever it is, I don't think we have it all that bad.

Alex

[slavdogg]

i think you guys are all going in circles.


Drav, i agree i've enjoyed reading non-American's views,. I can understand them, but cant say i agree with most of them.

[slavdogg]

PD, got me thinking..
Alex does sound like a traditional liberal American.
If he'd move to Berkley, he'd fit right in :)

[Peaches]

Canada and Australia ARE great places, but, and I ask this in all honesty, if another country decided to take you over by force, do you have the military ability to protect yourselves?

[RawAlex]

Peaches, you don't piss people off, you don't have to fight too often.

Besides out neighbor to the south ("you knighted stays"), there are very few countries with enough fire power to do us in... China, Russia, the usual offenders... I don't think we have too much to worry about from the Laotian air force, ya know?

US could take us over... the only difference would be less health care, more crime... :-)

Slavdogg, sorry I don't fit in much of anywhere in the political system of the US...

Alex

[KC]

Everyone always brings up guns. They think America is a dangerous place because of guns.. guns this guns that.

After watching the movie "Bowling for Columbine" I did some research to see what the gun related death rates really were. People constantly bring up how safe Japan is, because there were so few gun related deaths. Statistics can often be skewed in any direction to support almost any argument. Obviously the movie "Bowling for Columbine" took those stats and presented them in a very skewed way.

Suicidal Americans often use a gun in the process of their suicide. So all of those incidents get included in the "Gun related death" stats. Did you know that most Japanese commit suicide with knife into their stomach? (seppuku)

So let's look at a chart that displays "international violent death rates showing gun and non-gun homicide, suicide, and total violent death rates". After all, safety should include all forms of homicide.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

Here are a few highlights:

Country....................... Death Rate per 100,000 people
Austria......................... 23.36
Switzerland................. 22.80
France......................... 22.67
Mexico......................... 21.74
Belgium....................... 20.77
United States.............. 18.57
Japan.......................... 17.34
Sweden....................... 17.12
Germany...................... 17.00
Canada........................ 15.64
Australia....................... 14.65
Israel............................ 9.80

Go look at the whole list.. America hardly looks like such a dangerous place to live!!

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 09:46 PM
Slavdogg, sorry I don't fit in much of anywhere in the political system of the US...
yeah you do somewhere between far left and the green party, or both.

[slavdogg]

very good point KC,

i recently read a new story about Australia.
They banned guns ( not sure in what form )
and their crime death rate remained the same, they just found new ways to commit murder.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:46 PM
Peaches, you don't piss people off, you don't have to fight too often.
Well, yeah, the scrawny 80 pound weakling isn't going to kick sand in too many bully's faces :awinky:

[RawAlex]

KC, almost any number can be brought up to express a given point. But this list is missing some very important issues...

US murder rate: 6.8 for every 100,000 (1997 number I found on CNN)
In Japan, the United Nations reports the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000 (common number quoted on pro-gun sites).

In other words, you are 6.8 times more likely to get killed in the US than in Japan. You are more likely to commit suicide in Japan, as your numbers show, but it is VERY misleading to combine suicide and crime together to try to show things are just as safe. I am not suicidal (although posting here could cause it... not)... so I am almost 7 times safer living in Japan.

Sorry, but your stats are misleading, combine non-relevant information in an attempt to create false impression.

I mean, imagine: You are more likely to getting murdered in the middle of Idaho then you are in Japan...

Alex

[RawAlex]

Oh, KC, I went to look, from the same page you used:

United States: Total homicide 5.70 by gun 3.72
Japan: Total homicide 0.62 by gun 0.02 (!)

You are 18600% more likely to get murdered with a gun in the US than you are in Japan.

You are 9 times more likely to get murdered in the US then in Japan.

Idaho murder rate (http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-guncontrol.htm) was 2.9 - so you are still almost 5 times more likely to get murdered in Idaho than in Japan.

Gee, which country is safer?

Alex

[KC]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:06 PM
I mean, imagine: You are more likely to getting murdered in the middle of Idaho then you are in Japan...

The numbers are the numbers!!

Maybe the murder rate is lower because when a Japanese person screws over someone in Japan, They'd rather off themselves and die with honor than get shot for revenge. They're dead either way.

The result is that the surroundings cause suicide (ie: death)! So which is really safer? What about France, it looks like they're killing themselves like it's going out of style.

I don't think I'd want to live in a place that makes my want to commit suicide. ;)

[KC]

Alex,

Isreal is safer than Canada. Maybe you should move there for "safety sake" ;)

[RawAlex]

KC, whenyou are 18600% more likely to get murdered by gun in the US, maybe people don't have time to slink off and commit suicide.

Seriously, though, unless you know Japan, you won't realize that their culture is VERY different from American culture. Honor and Cho is much more important to them than you can imagine. The pressure to do well in Japan, to fit in, and to be part of their society is huge... some people don't make it, and take their own lives. It is VERY sad, and their culture doesn't allow for much discussion of this subject. Things are changing, but it is a very slow process.

I love Japan, I would love to live there... it is a beautiful country.

Alex

[KC]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:25 PM
I love Japan, I would love to live there... it is a beautiful country.
I would love to visit Japan. I definitely plan on it!

I doubt I'll feel safer walking around the streets in Japan as a tourist than I do walking around about any US town.

Dinner time, I'll check the thread later. :awinky:

[RawAlex]

KC, I have made a couple of trips to Japan, and have full intention to return as soon as time and planning permit. It is actually very weird how safe you will feel there... go to Tokyo, travel by subway (even last train of the night) without fear... wander the red light district with no real bigger fear than the endless calls of "sexy massage" and "I make special offer for you!"... it isn't as safe as it once was, but compared to ANY major american city, it is safer than you can imagine.

It actually took me about 3 days to turn down the radar - Tokyo is very crowded, but not that nasty rude "get the fuck out of my way" version, just alot of people with things to do and places to go.

I *HIGHLY* recommend it. (and I travelled ALONE, with no real understanding of the language or the country... and had a blast!)

Alex

[gigi]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 27 2003, 09:37 PM
Canada and Australia ARE great places, but, and I ask this in all honesty, if another country decided to take you over by force, do you have the military ability to protect yourselves?
An honest question...an honest answer....NO! HAHA (you've seen our navy...a pic was posted a couple of weeks ago....hehe)

But we do have the Great Wall of Beer Cans around the entire circumference of Canada, 100 cans deep, 1000 cans high. The plan it to get invaders wasted on Canadian beer so we can come in and steal their guns. :awinky:

In all seriousness....Canada is FAR from being able to protect itself on it's own militarily. HOWEVER, Canada also has many allies....Where others excel, we lack....and visa versa. Canada has much to offer in the way of natural resources, and even a half decent space program....we give what we can in our own way, as do our allies....that's what having friends is all about. B)

[cj]

Originally posted by Peaches+Feb 27 2003, 10:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peaches @ Feb 27 2003, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 10:46 PM
Peaches, you don't piss people off, you don't have to fight too often.
Well, yeah, the scrawny 80 pound weakling isn't going to kick sand in too many bully's faces :awinky:

[/b][/quote]
peaches!?!?!??!

woah
i'm shocked!

in answer to your question about whether we can protect ourselves ...

NO

we have more coastline that america, and a lot of pissed off muslims living on the islands around us ... our national security is under incredible threat lately ... why? because our country has chosen to support the usa in any and all military action ... our army on its own couldn't defend our own country, but we add some *very* valuable assets to yours.

could we count on you to defend us if we are attacked by the neighbours we are supporting you against? we've had this discussion and the american's intantly jumped on the case and said 'of course we would, there there australia' ... the answer is you would not defend us until our assets were at risk, then you'd jump in and help on the condition that you own or control our assets (with a nice media campaign to make it look like you are doing us a favor - and a 100 years of hearing about how you saved us from speaking another language)

if you want your country to be the 'likable leader', act like it!!! calling those who DO support you 'scrawny 80 pound weaklings' is hardly a way to win friends.

KC
>>I doubt I'll feel safer walking around the streets in Japan as a tourist than I do walking around about any US town.

Why don't you go and travel to japan first, it will give your perspective some credit.

Alex, I was scared shitless in japan!! not for my life, and i didn't feel in danger AT ALL, but i got so god damn lost i thought i would never find someone who spoke english to help me. the hotel receptionist says 'your room is on level five' and she holds up 4 fingers. i was a blithering wreck by the end of my 2 days there and haven't been back since. I'll try again when I have a travelling companion ;-)

[Carrie]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 02:09 PM
North Korea ... Who has weapons of mass destruction? Who is making threats? Who is testing missles with range to reach America?

What's the difference?

You've hit the nail on the head right there, that *is* the difference.
N. Korea has the weapons to hit us right now, so we must approach them carefully and exhaust every last option. To do otherwise is to risk WWIII.
That's why we're not rushing in there guns blazing - we could be signing our own death warrant if we do so (especially since they have big brother China sitting just behind them).

N. Korea is still willing to talk and seemingly compromise - so until they no longer are, the talks should continue.
*Only* when all of that is exhausted should we consider anything else.

[Carrie]

CJ: Big bad UN isn't looking after poor wittle america and instead its considering the effects on the world?!!?! shit 'eh. wasn't that its purpose? so a country like america can't bully their way into controlling every country of the world? is that why you don't like it mike?


Since when are we bullying anyone?
Isn't the UN there to protect things like humanity?
Isn't the UN supposed to stand up and DO something when Hussein is bombing and gassing his OWN people?
Why isn't the UN doing something about that?
We've had 12 years of useless "please mr hussein" resolutions from the UN and NO action to get this madman out of power.
The UN draws a line in the sand with a shaky hand and apologizing the entire time. When Hussein ignores that line and boldly walks across it, the UN draws another one even further back, again complemented by apologies for having to do so. Hussein ignores it again.
12 times now.

What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
And why is it that because America *is* doing this, we're the big awful "bully"?
The UK is right beside us in this... why aren't they also being tagged with the "bully" line?

CJ:
The WORST part of these discussions is that you actually manage to convince each other you are being fair and reasonable ... you constantly repeat phrases like 'dont get me wrong i like you personally' in an attempt to make you appear reasonable to each other. Do you think that as long as you say 'i like you' that you can be as ignorant and rude as you like?


No, it's reaffirming that the person is not being attacked, but the ideas that the person is putting forth are being debated.
I like Alex, I think he's a fun guy with a headful of valueable knowledge. I don't agree with many of his political beliefs. There's a difference. Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 12:02 AM
if you want your country to be the 'likable leader', act like it!!! calling those who DO support you 'scrawny 80 pound weaklings' is hardly a way to win friends.

I honestly thought that Peaches was referring to herself in this post - *not* to any of our allies.
I know I've seen pictures of Peaches but I can't remember them... anyhow that was my take on it and if it was the wrong 'take', I stand corrected!

[gigi]

I was under the same impression Carrie....so you weren't alone. ;)

And here's a pic of peaches and myself last month...hehe

http://www.ladyx.com/me-peaches.jpg

She's the blonde. Now if only her eyes were open!!!

Yes, she's a wee one....lol....even wee'er than meeeeeeeee!! (it's pretty rare to find someone who's actually shorter than I am) :awinky:

[edited for my funky grammar ;) ]



Last edited by gigi at Feb 28 2003, 01:41 AM

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:11 AM
What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
And why is it that because America *is* doing this, we're the big awful "bully"?
The UK is right beside us in this... why aren't they also being tagged with the "bully" line?

Ummm ... before you rant about something, you ought to check the facts, Carrie. Some Australian forces have already gone to the Gulf - left in early January, if I'm not mistaken - with more on the way. There are not as many forces as the U.S. and Britain are providing - they don't have as many, and they've got far more danger on the homefront than we do, IMHO - but it is a substantial force for them.

That's with an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group operating freely far closer than southern Mexico would be to Dallas, in an area that is in complete chaos. That's at (as I understand it) tremendous political risk to the Prime Minister - because Australian public opinion is even more closely divided than American public opinion, and the likelihood of a backlash for supporting the U.S. is great.

Whenever the U.S. has requested it, Australia has been there - in Korea, into the insanity of Vietnam, and the Gulf War. Sorry about clouding the issue with relevant facts, Carrie, but you really should have known better than this one.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 28 2003, 01:48 AM

[Carrie]

PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 28 2003, 01:36 AM
And here's a pic of peaches and myself last month...hehe

Now I'm doubly sure she was referring to herself!
You guys look like you were having fun :okthumb:

[cj]

my apologies to peaches if I read that incorrectly.
like i said, i was shocked ... so maybe that's why ;-)


carrie, go back and read the topic I was responding to before you attack me and the opinions i've stated in an open discussion. your doing exactly what this whole discussion started from ... automatically getting on your international high horse and jumping on the 'stop picking on us' defense.

your not even discussing the same subjects as I am. I don't need convincing that America is in the right for wanting to blow up iraq so have another read of the posts. ALL of them.

---
What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
---

ummmm ..... what?! nice way to piss off an australia - claim we aren't standing up and making demands. we are the only country who has declared unconditional support for you and you have the nerve to speak this sentence? looks to me like we ARE standing up and making some demands and your standing on a soapbox hoping to get a few 'jabs' in and hoping no one sees that you don't know what you are talking about. did you know that australia was victim to a terrorist attack (in bali) which lost 170 (mostly) australian lives due to our immediate and very public support of usa?


>>Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.

really?
that's funny .... i could have sworn that alex and I have said the same thing in this thread! like i said, read again ....

i'll help you out
its all about what makes someone an america hater, and started with colin asking alex to justify his answer on whether he was an america hater. then the point came up that only an american can point out flaws in american politics and that foreigners would be america haters if we said the same. then a few americans came along and changed the course of the discussion by rewording everything into american english and only taking the time to read 1 or 2 posts that outraged them and then responding with a string of americanisms that had nothing to do with the original point - like you've done.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM
PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
It's not just a question of "...have been there", Carrie ... they are putting their money where their mouth is and backing us now. You're saying your upset because, why, they aren't doing it loud enough?

I have no reason to think that Australia isn't backing up the U.S. at the UN - considering they have troops on the way and already there, it would be pretty peculiar if they weren't. Perhaps they aren't doing it as loud, as shrill, or as self righteously as you think appropriate - but they are there for us. I don't believe they currently hold one of the rotating seats on the Security Council, which probably explains why we aren't hearing much about that. We are concentrating our efforts on Cameroon at the moment.

The UK and Australia are taking plenty of heat about their support for our position on this. Both Blair and Howard are taking heat from within their own parties, let alone from their opposition, for their stands behind us. World opposition has focused on the U.S. - since we are spearheading the effort, that seems only appropriate. In the eyes of the world Australia and the U.K. are dancing to GW’s tune. alQaida and other such vermin have also taken note.

[AltMasters]

Gawd..I had to make a friggin pot of coffee to read this god forsaken thread. :zoinks:

Carrie, I agree totally with you.

The other day, i had to go out of town. While driving, i didn't feel like listening to music or ESPN radio. So I found a talk show on the radio.
After listening for a while. I didn't know it. But it was Rush Limbaugh. I hate that ignorant fuck. But while listening to him, before I realized who he was. Callers called in complaining the only reason we are going to war with Iraq is oil.
Hear me out and THINK about this.
Rush made a VERY clear point.
Iraq is NOT about fuckin oil. Yes, they have plenty. But if we actually wanted their oil. Its would save us BILLIONS of dollars and save thousands of lives, just lift the fuckin embargo.
Remember that embargo that the UN placed on Iraq?

Its all about bringing stablitly to the Middle East, nothing more.
Yes, it does have to do with some American interest, businesses and etc.
But this man is a total bully and has defide the UN for 12 years and his OWN people..

We have had santions on IRAQ for 12 years and the man isn't disarming like he is supposed too.
He's building up.

Since he is playing games with the UN and the rest of the world.
Since the UN doesn't wanna do anything about it.
The U.S. is gonna go in and clean up what the UN doesn't care to do.

When is enough, enough?
Sooner we get Saddam outta there. The better.

I'm like everyone else. I hate war too.
But sometimes, you just have to to bring peace for the future.

But after listening to that stupid fuck Limbaugh.
That was the first thing I ever have agree'd to anything he has said.

Saddam wants a Holy War.
We'll give that stupid fuck one.
:rokk:

[cj]

Originally posted by Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM
PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
*smacking head*

ooooooh right
so we should be sending our screaming forces instead of our military forces?!?!?

sorry our soldiers are risking their lives when we should have been focusing on screaming at the UN.

:headwall: :headwall: :headwall:

[Carrie]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Feb 28 2003, 02:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Feb 28 2003, 02:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM
PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
It's not just a question of "...have been there", Carrie ... they are putting their money where their mouth is and backing us now. You're saying your upset because, why, they aren't doing it loud enough?

I have no reason to think that Australia isn't backing up the U.S. at the UN[/b][/quote]
Good lord - if you guys are going to quote me, please do so - and stop putting words into my mouth!

I NEVER said they weren't backing us, I NEVER said they weren't doing it loudly enough.
What I asked is why, in the past 12 years, no one has approached the UN on their own and demanded that something be done.
Like we are doing now - yes, with our allies, but we're the driving force, the spearhead if you will.

Why is no one else willing to bring this issue up to the UN?

I am NOT slamming Australia...
And most of this thread has been "you're twisting our words" (I'm paraphrasing) - that's exactly what you're doing to me now.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by cj+Feb 28 2003, 02:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Feb 28 2003, 02:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Carrie@Feb 28 2003, 01:50 AM
PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.
*smacking head*

ooooooh right
so we should be sending our screaming forces instead of our military forces?!?!?

sorry our soldiers are risking their lives when we should have been focusing on screaming at the UN.

:headwall: :headwall: :headwall:[/b][/quote]
CJ both this post and the one before it in which you were responding to me are completely ignoring my point - purposefully, it seems - and reacting emotionally.
Strangely enough, reacting with a "blind patriotism" that Americans get slammed for.

Again, I am not bashing Australia. I'm not saying you haven't been there with your forces.

I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?

[gigi]

I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?

My guess is that you are including the US in that statement correct? The US sat on the Iraq issues for the same 12 years the rest of 'us' did.

[cj]

Carrie, if your going to throw out false, insulting, sweeping statements like you did, expect it to be picked apart and thrown back at you ... you didn't exactly clarify any facts when you said it, it was just a rant based on anger at my posts.

Stop whinging that poor america has to do all the screaming. you want to be the big boy then quit complaining that the world is picking on you and take responsiblity for what you started.

[KC]

CJ,

Why don't you go and travel to japan first, it will give your perspective some credit.

Since when do I need to travel to Japan to form an OPINION about how I think I'll feel there? Besides, you missed the whole point about Japan.

due to our immediate and very public support of usa?

Blame the terrorist attacks in Bali on Australia's support of the USA??? That's absurd. Australia supports our fight against terrorism because TERRORISM IS WRONG.

People in this thread are getting so defensive.. I'm going to bow out and get back to work. Have fun attacking each other.. :)

[cj]

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 28 2003, 02:23 AM
I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?

My guess is that you are including the US in that statement correct? The US sat on the Iraq issues for the same 12 years the rest of 'us' did.
and any country who did stand up would not only have to take on iraq, but usa as well ... because although usa has been dropping the ball for 12 years, heaven forbid should anyone else have a go ... and even if any other country wanted to, who is big enough to take on iraq by themselves? not even usa can do it!

[AltMasters]

USA could easliy whoop Iraq ass.

But why should we do it alone?
Its a world problem that many refuse to deal with.

I garrentee you this.
We leave iraq alone and let them continue their present course.
We ALL will have much bigger problems down the road.

Just like the Gulf War.
Isreal wans't even involved. Just friends with the US and for what I remember, Iraq sent over several Scuds at them.

I wonder what Iraq would do if they had more powerful and dangerous weapons then?

Maybe be get pissed off at ANY contry or Saddam gets a whim to go after another country and use something like VX or even nuclear bombs on our allies, just like he did with Kuwait.

Thanks, but no thanks.
twelve years is enough.
I'm tired of dealing with the man.
Just time to get rid of him.

[PornoDoggy]

I did not deliberately misrepresent your point - it came across to me the same way it seemed to CJ. With all due respect, your post is the one that came across as an emotional response.

But you didn't just bring up the whole "attrocity" issue, did you?

Which attrocities? The gassing of the Kurds, which the Defense Department is not convinced was actually done by Saddam - strong evidence suggests it was done by the Iranians?

Or maybe the military repression and revenge against the Kurds in the North, and the Shites in the South, who rebelled when encouraged to do so by the U.S. and were then left stranded high and dry?

In spite of the propaganda, do you really think that Saddam's record of represssion, torture and "atrocities" is that much better than many of the nations that the U.S. regards as friends and continues to aid? Egypt and Saudia Arabia leap immediately to mind.

The U.N. has fiddle-farted around while millions of Africans have been killed in at least a dozen coutries. The U.N. dilly-dallied around for a long while while hundreds of thousands, if not a million, were massacred in East Timor - a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism on the doorstep of Australia - and probably wouldn't have done much without Australian pressure, demands and leadership. The U.N. sat and watched Afganistan slip into the dark night of the Taliban without doing anything.

Why - because it is irrelevant? If it is irreleveant the U.S. plays a big role in that. Different groups of Security Council members have have blocked U.N. action on all of these issues - the United States the equal of any of them in that category. In Africa all of the Permanent Members wrung their hands, knashed their teeth, and quietly blocked action. In East Timor, if I remember correctly, Australia had to shame the U.N. into action, and had to overcome some U.S. resistance to U.N. involvement.

So you are right. No one besides the United States, apparently, has gotten up over the last twelve years and decried the very real torture and murder of hundreds of dissidents in Iraq. But in the grand scheme of things ... Iraq is a pretty small problem.

I'm all for disarming Saddam Hussein. I'm all for waging war against him for his refusal to disarm/comply with the agreements he made with the U.N. But let's keep this discussion real, shall we? This will eliminate a threat. But...

It will not stop terrorism against the United States - it will increase it. It will not stop terrorism against Israel - it will increase it. It will do NOTHING to get to and stop the people who attacked the United States on 9/11 - it will help them by greatly increasing the radicalization of a large portion of the Arab world, and serve as a marvelous recruiting tool for the likes of alQaida. It will not spread democracy movements to other countries in the area like Saudia Arabia - as I heard a man say on televsion tonight, talk of spreading Jeffersonian democracy into a country that still having discussions about whether it's appropriate to allow women to drive is a tad optomistic, don't you think? - any changes made will be superficial, and may in fact create a backlash of oppression by governments concerned with maintaining control.

I have said it before and I'll say it again - I think it's a job we need to do. I find some of the mindless pipedreams about the wonderful post-Saddam world I hear tossed irritating as hell, because it's pure fantasy.

[Carrie]

Edited: Never mind...



Last edited by Carrie at Feb 28 2003, 03:01 AM

[The Other Steve]

Apart from who said what at the UN sometime over the last 12 years let me just try and put a little perspective on Australia's place in the world for you people in North America.

We currently have a population of somwhere around 17 million - or less. Australia is less than 2 hours flying time from the worlds biggest single Muslim nation where there are over 200 million people. Indonesia's army is bigger than all our three services put together and multiplied several times over

Now you know why we tend to speak softly on matters that involve the Muslim world.

However, it doesn't mean that we are cowards. In the early days of the UN involvement in East Timor a couple of thousand poorly equipped but highly trained and dedicated Australian diggers faced down the Indonesian army.

That is something that the Indonesian nation holds against us - we made them lose face and they will try and repay that debt sometime in the next few years.

Even back in the 80's when I was in the Army we were being trained then to be prepared for when the Indonesian Army came over the hill. It's a whole lot closer now than it was then.

When it does happen I wonder if the US will stand as closely with us as we are standing with you guys right now.



Last edited by The Other Steve at Feb 28 2003, 12:04 AM

[Carrie]

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 28 2003, 02:23 AM
I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?

My guess is that you are including the US in that statement correct? The US sat on the Iraq issues for the same 12 years the rest of 'us' did.
Gigi,
Unfortunately I wasn't - I DO think that the US should have done something during those 12 years, but I believe I know why we didn't...
Just after Iraq with Bush Sr., we were busy rebuilding and waiting to see if Hussein was going to get his act straight.
Then Clinton was elected - and I truly believe that's where we (America) dropped the ball. He was too damn busy kissing China's ass for 8 years and being everyone's friend to have the balls to do any follow-up work that *needed* to be done.
Now we've got Bush Jr. in office and we have to try to catch-up on that dropped ball.

So I agree - we dropped the ball - and I'm not happy about that whatsoever.
But I do think that while Clinton was busy trying to make himself the next JFK and return Washington to Camelot, the playing field was wide open for anyone else to step up and pick up the ball. I don't understand why they didn't.

[KC]

Originally posted by The Other Steve@Feb 28 2003, 03:01 AM
When it does happen I wonder if the US will stand as closely with us as we are standing with you guys right now.
I'm sure you know you can count on the US to support you. We have a Pacific fleet putting around the Pacific looking for something to do!

[PornoDoggy]

I knew that was coming sooner or later. :blink:

[Carrie]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 01:59 AM
ummmm ..... what?! nice way to piss off an australia - claim we aren't standing up and making demands. we are the only country who has declared unconditional support for you and you have the nerve to speak this sentence?

(then later)...
Carrie, if your going to throw out false, insulting, sweeping statements like you did, expect it to be picked apart and thrown back at you ... you didn't exactly clarify any facts when you said it, it was just a rant based on anger at my posts.



First I'm pointing my finger directly at Australia and then I'm making a sweeping statement.
Decide what it is you're accusing me of doing; switching bases like this makes for an inconsistent argument! :D

I'm not "reacting" out of anger from your posts - your posts haven't made me angry whatsoever.
They have opened up my eyes though as to how *one* mis-perceived post mentioning Australia made you react... yet you claim that we Americans are "whining" for getting attacked like that every day of the year, multiple times per day.
Just think if this entire thread were about Australians, and not Americans - would your defensive posturing also be seen as "whining"?

[The Other Steve]

Originally posted by KC+Feb 28 2003, 12:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (KC @ Feb 28 2003, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--The Other Steve@Feb 28 2003, 03:01 AM
When it does happen I wonder if the US will stand as closely with us as we are standing with you guys right now.
I'm sure you know you can count on the US to support you. We have a Pacific fleet putting around the Pacific looking for something to do![/b][/quote]
Sorry to sound negative and I don't intend to get into an arguement over it but in the past the US has tended to side with Indonesia anytime there have been problems.

Not that long before we convinced you guys that East Timor really was somewhere that human rights were being trampled we asked the US to suspend arms exports to Indonesia. We did it because we are going to be on the receiving end of all that ordinance one day.

The US did not see its way clear to stop supporting its great ally - Indonesia.

So pardon me if I'm not so sure we can rely on assistance from the US.

[KC]

I guess time will tell. <shrug>

[PornoDoggy]

Look ... I'm still waiting to see something Alex ever posted that was "anti-American." As I pointed out in an earlier post, IMHO he's taken any number of positions that seem to me no different than a typical American liberal. Now, if you are the sort of moron who thinks that U.S. liberals are antiAmerican, then you're not worth the time it takes to talk to, so you can join Sword and quit reading now.

Hell - I spent ten years in the U.S. Navy and I get accused of being anti-American all the time, sometimes here and quite often on other boards. Why, according to "dozenchickens" I'm a pansy liberal loser who hates everything and has nothing to live for - and I'm almost as proud of that as I am of being called a communist by Torone.

There are a lot of people on the boards these days who take disagreeing with American policy as being antiAmerican. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who start hysterical shouts of antiAmericanism if you are critical of the Bush Administration. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who get their underwear tied in a knot screaming about antiAmericanism if you suggest there may not be a connection between Saddam and alQaida.

What some people seem to regard as "antiAmerican" to me seems like nothing more than debate and an alternative opinion. It ranges from intelligent to moronic.

I haven't agreed with a lot that Alex has posted - but the suggestion that he is somehow antiAmerican because of what he's posted is absurd, IMHO.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 28 2003, 03:40 AM

[cj]

Originally posted by Carrie+Feb 28 2003, 03:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Feb 28 2003, 03:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--cj@Feb 28 2003, 01:59 AM
ummmm ..... what?! nice way to piss off an australia - claim we aren't standing up and making demands. we are the only country who has declared unconditional support for you and you have the nerve to speak this sentence?

(then later)...
Carrie, if your going to throw out false, insulting, sweeping statements like you did, expect it to be picked apart and thrown back at you ... you didn't exactly clarify any facts when you said it, it was just a rant based on anger at my posts.



First I'm pointing my finger directly at Australia and then I'm making a sweeping statement.
Decide what it is you're accusing me of doing; switching bases like this makes for an inconsistent argument! :D

I'm not "reacting" out of anger from your posts - your posts haven't made me angry whatsoever.
They have opened up my eyes though as to how *one* mis-perceived post mentioning Australia made you react... yet you claim that we Americans are "whining" for getting attacked like that every day of the year, multiple times per day.
Just think if this entire thread were about Australians, and not Americans - would your defensive posturing also be seen as "whining"?[/b][/quote]
Carrie, don't come into a discussion late and attack me for my reaction to you.

you jumped on the bandwagon and proved you hadn't done any prior reading on what our discussion was about or what my posts are responding to. you are trying to make this about war on iraq or what the world hasn't done for america or whatever other crap your going on with ... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.

They seem to have more patience left though so carrie-on ...

[KC]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 03:41 AM
... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.
Now the name calling starts?

Someone is really taking this debate personally now..

[JR]

American vs. The world.

i am American. i have spent most of the last 7 years in Europe and Eastern Europe. i travel. i travel a lot. i like spending a lot of time seeing new things, places, peoples and cultures.

in the last year and a 1/2 or so, i have been to:
France (several times)
Spain
England
Holland (several times)
Germany (several times)
Austria
Italy
Russia
Luxembourg
Belgium
Monaco (a couple times)
Thailand (had apartment there)
Korea

and probably others i am forgetting right now. so its not exactly like i am many Americans who dont get much past the 7-11 down the street, yet feel that they have a valid opinion about life in Rome.

American vs Europe/world and my opinion.

I have made this points on GFY many times in the recurring debate about "why do we hate you/why do they hate us/Europe vs America" debate

some factors that play a key role.

media:

media in most of the world shows far more about the US than the US shows about the world. Even Alex's beloved CTV will show a trivial story about a food poisoning incident in FrozenNipple, South Dakota as if it was right down the street from Saskatchewan. Canadian TV talks about America like it is a part of Canada or like there is no border. I remember North America being used far more often that referrences to "Canada/USA". They refer to States and cities without distinguishing between countries.

i dont think this happens in the US. if it does, it happens merely a fraction of the time it does in Canada.

this happens throughout the world from what i have seen. in Russia, 1/3rd of their news about the world is about the US. This cannot be said of other countries. For example, people in Japan are probably not continually bombarded with stories about pop stars breast implants in the Czech Republic or box office grosses of the latest film of Polands greatest director.

Nationalism:

One of the most interesting things that is very different between Europe, a lot of the world and the USA are the various forms and degrees of nationalism.

I dont mean pride, arrogance or a sense of superiority. i mean that in Europe and most of the world, people identify each other more by country/nationality. For example ALMOST ALWAYS, European news says the same things in headlines/stories. "The Italians said..." "The French decided..." "Germany is going to...." and group an entire country and culture together behind the remarks or actions of one politician. Europe in the news seems to me to often be more like competing sports teams or something.

It makes me crazy to keep reading stories that say "the americans still want..."

I am not "America"
I am not "Americans"

To most Europe and the world, George Bush = "Americans".
To me, that sucks balls.

i think this happens less in the US press. I could be wrong. but its one of the things that i am always aware of and watch because i see so much "America decides to..." rather than direct references to politicians or people. I think this happens less in American press and is one of the greater causes of a missunderstanding of how Americans perceive themselves vs. how the world perceives America. Americans see themselves as a nation deeply divided amoung political and idealogical lines with a wide range of opinions, beliefs and ideas. The rest of the world, mostly just sees "America"

Cultural perspectives, General Media Bias and political agendas.

All countries act in their own interests in the International playground of politics. People in a villiage in Dagestan may REALLY have no idea why the US or anyone is interested in what happens in Taiwan. To them, you wake up, you milk the goats, you butcher some chickens and sell some wool... all while being completely baffled by why anyone would try to assert their authority to influence the behavior of another country.

every country shows the news from its own perspective. bias is unnavoidable. everyone insists it isnt. Thats absurd and rediculous. This always spawns the typical GFY "my news is better than your news" debate. Showing a different perspective that is consistent with what may be news worthy to them, suddenly means that US news is just propoganda because they "see the real truth"

The truth is that Pakistan is probably spending less time talking about Madonnas latest hit or why Michael Jackson looks so freakish, as they are talking about all the Issues around the world that are related to the India, religion, or anything else that is important to them as a culture, people and country... and those events that may effect Pakistan and how. Whats important and relevant to people as a culture, society and country also determines what is newsworthy and determines how it is presented. Bias and different perspectives and view points cannot be avoided. Otherwise news would be a universal, boring, monotone, math formula... that is completely irrelevant to everyone.

Americans dont understand how the world perceives America

Americans really dont understand on the whole why many in the world do not like or certainly resent America. Bush in my opinion is fucking the image of America up in the world in the worst way possible.

The same words come up all the time in every arguement and conflict. The fact is, they sell well only to Americans.
"truth"
"freedom"
"justice"
"democracy"

then these words are used in a coversation about war, choosing another countries leaders, going around the UN and Security Council to attack another country. A REAL perceived war against Islam in the Islamic world. talking about the suffering of one people when politically convienent and ignoring the plight of others.

it all sells well in the US. it is apparently selling less and less in the rest of the world. Should we attack Iraq? sure, i think we should. Saddam Hussein should be shot in the head in my opinion. BUT should we send a bizarre contradictory message that we are going outside the democratic process of the UN in the interest of democracy? i dont think so. Should we be talking about attacking a country in the interest of freedom? i think thats a little contradictory.

a lot of this sells well in the US. to most who can only helplessly sit back and watch the worlds most powerful nation, most powerful military and most technologically advanced fighting force go around the UN and arguably international law, to attack a country, it doesnt.

Kyoto
Steel tarrifs
North Korea
Attack Iraq
etc etc.

The US, to the outside world looks increasinly like a runaway freight train. This is why i partially agree with the actions of and Germany, Russia, France, Beligium etc. its not about right or wrong... there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence. It does not make attacking iraq any more right or wrong. But stabilty in the world begins with a majority opinion on the most serious of decisions - attacking another country.

inflated sense of self

every country has a different sense of self and it often varies greatly from world perception of that coutry. people talk about "American Ego" - well, i dont want to sound racist but i have spent a great deal of time around other people too. its not unique to America. America just seems to have the loudest and most frequently heard voice. RawAlex mentions Japan. I have known many Japanese who felt they were truly the worlds one, true
"Super Race". I have grown up fishing in Alaska in the Bering Sea. Many Norwegians. They too seemed to me to have a collective sense of superiority over others. Americans do too. So what? So does France. So does Germany, so do Middle Eastern countries, so do many who feel they dont receive the proper recognition for their achievements, or for religious grounds, or for the percieved greatness of their culture, history, past achievements etc. so what?

You cant say "American Ego" and refer to it as if it is some isolated phenomenon that only applies to the US. It would be hard to find a country in the world that did not have a collective sense of pride about their place of birth, their people, their history and their culture. its quite normal and expected.

[KC]

Awesome post JR!!

[PornoDoggy]

:wnw:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 27 2003, 06:41 PM
colin, you are still pushing your original point which is 'alex, i demand you answer my loaded question'.


No, I don't DEMAND anything. Alex doesn't want to answer the question so I've dropped it. That's fine with me.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 27 2003, 06:41 PM
why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?
answer me THAT question colin, vick, mike and the rest of you who can't seem to accept opinions of others.


I respect YOUR opinions, CJ. You know my opinion of you and your posts. It is public record.

You are one of the best marketing people in our business, one of the wisest in our business and one of the most intelligent in our business. I am always interested in what you have to say. I've told you that since the day I met you in both private and public. There's no way you can say I don't accept your opinions because we were born in different countries given the only things I have ever said about you or any of your posts has only been positive.

[slavdogg]

JR, i'd say that is the best post ever made on Oprano. well said
:wnw: :rokk: :wnw:



re: Americans not knowing any world news.
I'd say thats probably changing slowly with the help of the internet.
I know for myself i read a lot of world news sites, and so do others as all those sites are popular. But other than that no major new channel covers much of whats happening in the rest of the world unless its some major event. I hardly ever hear anything about Canada or Australia on the news. UK gets covered the most out of all the foreign countries. I have seen BBC news and some German news programs that i've run into while channel surfing, but those are rare. Even news from rest of the Americas hardly ever makes it on, unless again some shit happens. And you're right about Russian news, I've seen them and they do cover all types of news from the US. So as far as world news and happenings goes, i'd say most Americans are pretty ignorant in that department.

[slavdogg]

Someone mentioned Canadian Military
they had an unfortunate accident on one of their ship today..
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/27/iroqu...ois_crash030227 (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/27/iroquois_crash030227)


But what i really wanna know is, Do they have the ugliest warships in the world or what ??
It looks like one of those Chinese fishing boats with human cargo :)

[Almighty Colin]

JR, I agree that the words "freedom", "justice" , and "democracy" are overused and are buzzwords that are often used to justify many actions. I've thought about these. Why are these words used so much in America? What is the historical antecedents to our modern usage of these words? Are they still relevant?

I dont have much to say about "justice". It's a very relative term and too vague too even pin a precise definition on it. "Plato's Republic" includes an incredible discussion led by Socrates on the subject of justice and the relativeness of the concept. Definitely worth a read for anyone interested.

The concept of "freedom" played a pivotal role in the founding of America. Today, people often mean freedom of speech when they think of freedom. Early American documents though show a total concern with the concept of freedom from despots and tyranny - most specifically King George III. Many of the early Americans were republicans who believed that the US should be a true Republic, that people should choose representatives who would literally "represent" their interests. These early Americans didn't believe there should be one leader and many didn't even think there should be a central government at all. This didn't work out too well as there was much infighting and it threatened to tear early America apart. Eventually, a federal government was formed and a president was put in place partly to keep the congress in check. There was agreat battle between these republicans and the "Federalists" who believed in a more central government. What actually resulted was a balance of these two views -- a theme that I think is most important in the governance of a nation. Balance between competing ideologies and systems that are designed to moderate that balance.

When a president of the United States proclaims and invokes the concept of "freedom" they usually mean this latter kind - freedom from tyranny.

What freedom would mean in time ebbed and flowed in those early days. Note the stretch of time between 1776 and 1789, from the Declaration of Independence to Washington becoming president. In that time. Congress was trying to decide what system would best allow decisions to actually be made and yet not allow too much power to be invested in one any office or institution.

Declaration of Independence. 1776.
Articles of Confederation. 1781.
Constitution. 1787.
Washingon became president. 1789.

Many were so worried that a leader would assume monarchial powers like back home that they
didn't want any central government or a president at all. No central government seemed great in practice but didn't work for a variety of reasons.

All of these changes had to do with "freedom". That people would be free to choose their representatives, that people would be free to change their leaders , that people would be free from tyranny and control, that people would be fairly represented but that government would not grind to a halt and split.

"Democracy", from the greek "Demos" meaning people. Government of the people. A Democratic Republic. People would choose their representatives but the states would choose
the president. The system was unique as such but with antecedents mostly in ancient Greece and Rome.

"Freedom and Democracy" meant something then and they still do today. Democracy has been
spreading the world over and continues to do so. America has fought over these principles before, both successfully and unsuccessfully.

If Afghanistan should continue down what looks like the path to democracy, should we proud of our role in that change from a government of tyranny to a government of consent? Should Americans, British, and Australians be proud of their country's role in converting Iraq from a government of control to a government of the people?

When can sovereignty be violated and when can it not? Does the world become "safer for
democracy" when there are more democracies? Is ideology worth fighting for? It seems to me that as more and more countries becomes democracies there are less and less interested in fighting for more. Maybe we've reached some critical density? If we judge the current decision of the US to go to war by what it's leaders say, we are once again - at least partly - fighting to spread the democratic ideal. George Bush speaks extensively of the importance of installing democracy in Iraq and the process may very well occur. Planning for such is very well under way in Afghanistan and it seems to me it will happen. But who knows such things for sure?

America has no monopoly on the concepts of democracy and freedom. She has been instrumental in their spread but not alone. Americans are proud of their country's heritage and it's role in the spread of these ideologies. One things these messageboards can do is help us to
understand the ideas and thoughts of people from different places and cultures. I am interested in what others think of the concepts of "freedom" and "democracy" and how important they are to them.

In my reading of history, people pretty much take the positions that would benefit themselves the most. Many in America believe that democracy in Iraq is more important than Iraq's sovereignty - that Iraq is a place to plant the first seeds of Democracy in the Middle East - and that this will reduce the terrorism threat from the whole region if elected governments spring forth from those seeds. Many elsewhere believe that sovereignty is more important than the democratic ideology various other reasons. Still others think that planting seeds in the desert is a risky agricultural practice.

Some people think the UN should play center stage in world politics because it agrees with their views. Some Americans think that US sovereignty is more important than the UN because it disagrees with their views. I have little doubt that if the UN authorized military action, many opposed to military action would think the US bought members of the UN off. I also have little doubt that if the UN never does authorize military force that many Americans will think of US sovereignty as more important than the UN and that the UN is "worthless".

We all contradict ourselves in these views sometimes thinking sovereignty is the most important principle, sometimes thinking worldly institutions are important, sometimes thinking they are irrelevant. No one is right or wrong in any sense of the word.

I have never been able to resolve these differences in myself and I have never heard a completely consistent viewpoint regarding world politics from anyone or anywhere. What seems to happen is that everyone acts in what they believe is their own best interest and forms their views accordingly. Maybe it has something to do with Godel. Logic, consistency, and politics
are the strangest of bedfellows.



Last edited by Colin at Feb 28 2003, 10:44 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 27 2003, 09:19 PM
I don't think we have it all that bad.

I don't think you "have it bad" at all. My view of Canada is EXTREMELY positive, Alex.

[Peaches]

Rut Ro....I wasn't talking about myself being the 80 pound weakling (I WISH!!! ) :(

Alex said that Canada doesn't need a military because Canada doesn't piss people off, but I was wondering out loud if maybe they weren't pissing people off because they didn't have a military :rolleyes: Chicken/egg/chicken.....

It's real easy to say "Oh, everyone loves Canada and Australia!" Well sure! Because again, who the heck are you going to go and tick off when you know you can't really defend yourself? It just wouldn't make much sense, would it? America is the 800 pound gorilla. We have the ability to create economic and military problems for most of the other countries in the world. We can be a bully and it's human nature to hate the bully.

And please understand - I LOVE Canadians, I LOVE Australians and there are a LOT of Americans I can't STAND. This isn't anything personal. :) And I think the Japanese are committing suicide in such high numbers because they live in such tiny little spaces - yuck!

(Gigi was touching my boobie and my eyes were closed in deep ecstasy. I hope everyone downloaded that picture as that's about as close to a lesbian scene as you're going to get from me :yowsa: )

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 28 2003, 09:45 AM
We can be a bully and it's human nature to hate the bully.

Some of us can agree on THAT, Peaches. Alex once said that the US is "a big bully next door" that makes him feel "uncomfortable".

[spanno]

I have got to say this is the most worthwhile and interesting thread ever
and I read every word!

[JR]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 28 2003, 06:45 AM

Alex said that Canada doesn't need a military because Canada doesn't piss people off, but I was wondering out loud if maybe they weren't pissing people off because they didn't have a military :rolleyes: Chicken/egg/chicken.....
mutt made me realize something when i made remarks in the past about Canadas military.

a simple fact is that Canada and Mexico do not NEED a significant military. i agree with that. if they dont NEED a significant military, why have one? they can spend billions of dollars on other infrastructure while the US spends billions on their own military.

makes 100% sense to me.

to make the arguement that canada does not need a military because "canada does not piss people off" means that you have to also make the case that Canada could realistically be attacked or faces any real threats while living in the shadow of a multi-trillion dollar fighting force.

[Rolo]

"America" do get alot of attention in the world media, but thats the price of being a "open" superpower - everyone wants to either messure up or create an outside enemy (explains alot of the bad image "America" got).

Also more and more people are "news junkies" - they always got to see what the latest news are, even though most of the time the news headlines have zero impact on their life... If you live in small country, then you need to import news or there will be nothing to show and people will run amok... Love this quote from Dan Rather:

"I got addicted. News, particularly daily news, is more addictive than crack cocaine, more addictive than heroin, more addictive than cigarettes."
--Dan Rather in Brill's Content, October 1998.

America is one of the biggest suppliers to news addicts around the world...

[gigi]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 28 2003, 04:11 AM
American vs. The world.

i am American. i have spent most of the last 7 years in Europe and Eastern Europe. i travel. i travel a lot. i like spending a lot of time seeing new things, places, peoples and cultures.

in the last year and a 1/2 or so, i have been to:
France (several times)
Spain
England
Holland (several times)
Germany (several times)
Austria
Italy
Russia
Luxembourg
Belgium
Monaco (a couple times)
Thailand (had apartment there)
Korea

and probably others i am forgetting right now. so its not exactly like i am many Americans who dont get much past the 7-11 down the street, yet feel that they have a valid opinion about life in Rome.

American vs Europe/world and my opinion.

I have made this points on GFY many times in the recurring debate about "why do we hate you/why do they hate us/Europe vs America" debate

some factors that play a key role.

media:

media in most of the world shows far more about the US than the US shows about the world. Even Alex's beloved CTV will show a trivial story about a food poisoning incident in FrozenNipple, South Dakota as if it was right down the street from Saskatchewan. Canadian TV talks about America like it is a part of Canada or like there is no border. I remember North America being used far more often that referrences to "Canada/USA". They refer to States and cities without distinguishing between countries.

i dont think this happens in the US. if it does, it happens merely a fraction of the time it does in Canada.

this happens throughout the world from what i have seen. in Russia, 1/3rd of their news about the world is about the US. This cannot be said of other countries. For example, people in Japan are probably not continually bombarded with stories about pop stars breast implants in the Czech Republic or box office grosses of the latest film of Polands greatest director.

Nationalism:

One of the most interesting things that is very different between Europe, a lot of the world and the USA are the various forms and degrees of nationalism.

I dont mean pride, arrogance or a sense of superiority. i mean that in Europe and most of the world, people identify each other more by country/nationality. For example ALMOST ALWAYS, European news says the same things in headlines/stories. "The Italians said..." "The French decided..." "Germany is going to...." and group an entire country and culture together behind the remarks or actions of one politician. Europe in the news seems to me to often be more like competing sports teams or something.

It makes me crazy to keep reading stories that say "the americans still want..."

I am not "America"
I am not "Americans"

To most Europe and the world, George Bush = "Americans".
To me, that sucks balls.

i think this happens less in the US press. I could be wrong. but its one of the things that i am always aware of and watch because i see so much "America decides to..." rather than direct references to politicians or people. I think this happens less in American press and is one of the greater causes of a missunderstanding of how Americans perceive themselves vs. how the world perceives America. Americans see themselves as a nation deeply divided amoung political and idealogical lines with a wide range of opinions, beliefs and ideas. The rest of the world, mostly just sees "America"

Cultural perspectives, General Media Bias and political agendas.

All countries act in their own interests in the International playground of politics. People in a villiage in Dagestan may REALLY have no idea why the US or anyone is interested in what happens in Taiwan. To them, you wake up, you milk the goats, you butcher some chickens and sell some wool... all while being completely baffled by why anyone would try to assert their authority to influence the behavior of another country.

every country shows the news from its own perspective. bias is unnavoidable. everyone insists it isnt. Thats absurd and rediculous. This always spawns the typical GFY "my news is better than your news" debate. Showing a different perspective that is consistent with what may be news worthy to them, suddenly means that US news is just propoganda because they "see the real truth"

The truth is that Pakistan is probably spending less time talking about Madonnas latest hit or why Michael Jackson looks so freakish, as they are talking about all the Issues around the world that are related to the India, religion, or anything else that is important to them as a culture, people and country... and those events that may effect Pakistan and how. Whats important and relevant to people as a culture, society and country also determines what is newsworthy and determines how it is presented. Bias and different perspectives and view points cannot be avoided. Otherwise news would be a universal, boring, monotone, math formula... that is completely irrelevant to everyone.

Americans dont understand how the world perceives America

Americans really dont understand on the whole why many in the world do not like or certainly resent America. Bush in my opinion is fucking the image of America up in the world in the worst way possible.

The same words come up all the time in every arguement and conflict. The fact is, they sell well only to Americans.
"truth"
"freedom"
"justice"
"democracy"

then these words are used in a coversation about war, choosing another countries leaders, going around the UN and Security Council to attack another country. A REAL perceived war against Islam in the Islamic world. talking about the suffering of one people when politically convienent and ignoring the plight of others.

it all sells well in the US. it is apparently selling less and less in the rest of the world. Should we attack Iraq? sure, i think we should. Saddam Hussein should be shot in the head in my opinion. BUT should we send a bizarre contradictory message that we are going outside the democratic process of the UN in the interest of democracy? i dont think so. Should we be talking about attacking a country in the interest of freedom? i think thats a little contradictory.

a lot of this sells well in the US. to most who can only helplessly sit back and watch the worlds most powerful nation, most powerful military and most technologically advanced fighting force go around the UN and arguably international law, to attack a country, it doesnt.

Kyoto
Steel tarrifs
North Korea
Attack Iraq
etc etc.

The US, to the outside world looks increasinly like a runaway freight train. This is why i partially agree with the actions of and Germany, Russia, France, Beligium etc. its not about right or wrong... there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence. It does not make attacking iraq any more right or wrong. But stabilty in the world begins with a majority opinion on the most serious of decisions - attacking another country.

inflated sense of self

every country has a different sense of self and it often varies greatly from world perception of that coutry. people talk about "American Ego" - well, i dont want to sound racist but i have spent a great deal of time around other people too. its not unique to America. America just seems to have the loudest and most frequently heard voice. RawAlex mentions Japan. I have known many Japanese who felt they were truly the worlds one, true
"Super Race". I have grown up fishing in Alaska in the Bering Sea. Many Norwegians. They too seemed to me to have a collective sense of superiority over others. Americans do too. So what? So does France. So does Germany, so do Middle Eastern countries, so do many who feel they dont receive the proper recognition for their achievements, or for religious grounds, or for the percieved greatness of their culture, history, past achievements etc. so what?

You cant say "American Ego" and refer to it as if it is some isolated phenomenon that only applies to the US. It would be hard to find a country in the world that did not have a collective sense of pride about their place of birth, their people, their history and their culture. its quite normal and expected.
I haven't finished reading today's posts this morning...but I just had to say


BRAVO JR!!! You almost had me in tears. :rokk:

That is an excellent post! Very moving, and absolutely on target IMHO.

[gigi]

Originally posted by Peaches@Feb 28 2003, 09:45 AM
(Gigi was touching my boobie and my eyes were closed in deep ecstasy. I hope everyone downloaded that picture as that's about as close to a lesbian scene as you're going to get from me :yowsa: )
Damn Peaches...so I guess that means I should cancel the photographer I set up for the next show then?

:headwall:

[gigi]

Originally posted by Colin+Feb 28 2003, 09:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Feb 28 2003, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Feb 28 2003, 09:45 AM
We can be a bully and it's human nature to hate the bully.

Some of us can agree on THAT, Peaches. Alex once said that the US is "a big bully next door" that makes him feel "uncomfortable".[/b][/quote]
I don't think being 'next door' has much to do with it....as we know CJ feels the same way and she's on the other side of the pond. :awinky:

[gigi]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 28 2003, 10:17 AM
mutt made me realize something when i made remarks in the past about Canadas military.

a simple fact is that Canada and Mexico do not NEED a significant military. i agree with that. if they dont NEED a significant military, why have one? they can spend billions of dollars on other infrastructure while the US spends billions on their own military.

makes 100% sense to me.

to make the arguement that canada does not need a military because "canada does not piss people off" means that you have to also make the case that Canada could realistically be attacked or faces any real threats while living in the shadow of a multi-trillion dollar fighting force.
Agreed.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by gigi+Feb 28 2003, 12:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (gigi @ Feb 28 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -Colin@Feb 28 2003, 09:52 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Peaches@Feb 28 2003, 09:45 AM
We can be a bully and it's human nature to hate the bully.

Some of us can agree on THAT, Peaches. Alex once said that the US is "a big bully next door" that makes him feel "uncomfortable".
I don't think being 'next door' has much to do with it....as we know CJ feels the same way and she's on the other side of the pond. :awinky:[/b][/quote]
I was inferring that Alex agrees that the US is a big bully, not I.

I have no idea if CJ considers the US to be a "big bully".

[gigi]

Interesting post Colin....

I am interested in what others think of the concepts of "freedom" and "democracy" and how important they are to them.

I think you will find that the concepts of freedom and democracy are very similar in other democratic societies as they are for most Americans.

I think this question should be targeted at non-democratic societies ie: Iraq etc....

I fear the ideologies of freedom and democracy are not held in such high esteem in areas such as the Middle East where, as JR pointed out, their societies are not based on 'pop culture' and other typically democratic concepts.

I think I've said this before....even if Saddam WAS removed in Iraq and a democratic system implemented, 'the people' would most likely 'vote' for a person/party that upheld their belief systems and lifestyles.

I think it's utopian thinking that they will become 'westernized' just by the implementation of a democratic system.

In fact, I fear that they might 'vote' for someone who upholds fundamental Muslim beliefs...and that is scary. At least we know that Saddam could care less about Jihad or Alla....he's too greedy and self-serving for that. :awinky:

That's not to say I don't want Saddam out (Lord knows I think he deserves alot more pain than a quick shot in the head)....but I DO think we need to think VERRRRRRRRRY carefully about implementing a democracy there.

My 2 Canadian Cents



Last edited by gigi at Feb 28 2003, 12:51 PM

[gigi]

I was inferring that Alex agrees that the US is a big bully, not I.

Yes'm, I thought the same??

I have no idea if CJ considers the US to be a "big bully".

Hmm, I based my assumption on her previous posts....however I could be wrong...you know what they say about 'assuming'. :awinky:

[Vick]

Some very well expressed and thought provoking posts here over the last few pages
Which proves my point that good strong viable ideas and concepts will stand up on their own merits even in the face of opposition

CJ - Could you please share more information why you feel this way? -
"the answer is you would not defend us until our assets were at risk, then you'd jump in and help on the condition that you own or control our assets"

also could someone (maybe The Other Steve or CJ) - please show me where I can find a synopsis of information related to Australia was victim to a terrorist attack (in bali) which lost 170 (mostly) australian lives due to our immediate and very public support of usa?
Also any information regarding the concerns that Australia has regarding possible conflicts with Indonesia and (the possibility of a) lack of support from the USA

I'm lazy and you are better versed in this area than I and I would like to know more about it

At this point and time Australia and the UK are the USA's only allies and if Australian's feel the US would not support them in kind (which we should!!) I'd like to know more about it and the causes and conditions

[Vick]

JR- Great post
You have a better perspective from your travels and living in different cultures than most would/do

I am a little conflicted on a few things in the post though, maybe with more information I can better understand

" there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence" Why? According to whom?
and
"to most who can only helplessly sit back and watch the worlds most powerful nation, most powerful military and most technologically advanced fighting force go around the UN and arguably international law, to attack a country, it doesn't."

But at the same time you understand a country's need to serve it's own interests as it sees fit

Why should the US concern it's self with international law (if there even is such a thing as international law) when we need to serve our own interests (I'm not even going to throw in the democracy agreement)
and who is responsible for creating and upholding these international laws?

I'm pretty much to the point where I believe the US should lessen it's involvement with the UN. As much as I'd like to see it the US can not totally remove it's self from the UN

[JR]

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 28 2003, 09:51 AM

I think it's utopian thinking that they will become 'westernized' just by the implementation of a democratic system.

In fact, I fear that they might 'vote' for someone who upholds fundamental Muslim beliefs...and that is scary. At least we know that Saddam could care less about Jihad or Alla....he's too greedy and self-serving for that. :awinky:

My 2 Canadian Cents
i agree with this too to some extent. i think that Democracy is not the ultimate "cure all" that the Western world thinks it is. however, its a rare opportunity to try to push that region down that course and plant the seed.

what you said is similar to a report by the International Monetary Fund on Russias economic transition that i used to love to read.

the initial assumption was that a "free market" would instantly cure all evils, sort itself out, self correct and set the economy on the right course automatically and life would be peachy for all.

after Russia defaulted on payments for billions of Dollars in foreign debts in 1998, the IMF admitted in the end, that it also requires the will of the people and government to commit down that path.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

two Candian cents by the way, is only 1.3 American cents
the good news is that it is 2.21 Australian cents, so you may get change back if CJ posts.

:bjump: :bdance:

[JR]

" there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence" Why? According to whom?

Once the US government decides to step outside the framework of the existing structure in place for resolving international conflicts and violates the very democratic process it claims to be a proponent of AND additionally goes completely against world opinion and the will of that organization - it becomes a sincere threat and danger to everyone.

Americans dont think so... but people world wide who already question the motivations and intentions of the US certainly do.


Why should the US concern it's self with international law (if there even is such a thing as international law) when we need to serve our own interests (I'm not even going to throw in the democracy agreement)
and who is responsible for creating and upholding these international laws?

the UN was created specifically to "represent the moral consensus of its members" and its primary function and reason for its very creation was to avoid war.


PREAMBLE

"WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

AND FOR THESE ENDS

to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,

HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS"


i think that if the USA is going to again, act outside of the consensus of the UN (i.e. bombed Yugoslavia) then they have the obligation to withdraw from the UN... not insist to UN members that they must act unilaterally in the interest of democracy.

the world is not a perfect place. democracy is not perfect. its a question of willing to abide by the system and accept the good with the bad. If world opinion is against attacking Iraq as well as that of the Security Council, then it has to be respected or the institution itself is being rendered irrelevant anyway by acting outside of its authority.

the argument is not about Iraq violating international law. its a question of degrees. the Security council is also putting pressure on him as is the US right now. is it effective, working, not working etc etc... do they need more time before coming to a clear conclusion? can Saddam be disarmed without a fight? ... thats a matter of the collective opinions and will of the members of the UN Security Council.



Last edited by JR at Feb 28 2003, 12:11 PM

[Almighty Colin]

I agree with the points re: the uncertainty of democracy in Iraq. I have no idea what would happen. There is a presumption from some that the majprity of Iraqis don't want Saddam in power. I have no idea if this is true. I don't think public polls are allowed ;-)

Democracy with frequent elections allows people to vote leaders out that they don't like. Does that make the world better? Seeds were planted in the past and they did sprout. Democracy continues to spread.

[If people perceive that Bush is a tyrant, for example. they can vote him out in a few years.]

JR,

I think the US will most likely act outside the UN and stay in the UN. Such is the world. I don't know what RESPONSIBILITY the US has to pull out completely if the UN should disagree. This may be heavy-handed. It might not be as fair to some as others. I do believe it will happen. Everyone plays by the rules they can, don't they?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 28 2003, 02:43 PM
i think that Democracy is not the ultimate "cure all" that the Western world thinks it is. however, its a rare opportunity to try to push that region down that course and plant the seed.


Agreed.

Agreed.

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Vick@Feb 28 2003, 02:33 PM
JR- Great post
You have a better perspective from your travels and living in different cultures than most would/do

I am a little conflicted on a few things in the post though, maybe with more information I can better understand

" there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence" Why? According to whom?
and
"to most who can only helplessly sit back and watch the worlds most powerful nation, most powerful military and most technologically advanced fighting force go around the UN and arguably international law, to attack a country, it doesn't."

But at the same time you understand a country's need to serve it's own interests as it sees fit

Why should the US concern it's self with international law (if there even is such a thing as international law) when we need to serve our own interests (I'm not even going to throw in the democracy agreement)
and who is responsible for creating and upholding these international laws?

I'm pretty much to the point where I believe the US should lessen it's involvement with the UN. As much as I'd like to see it the US can not totally remove it's self from the UN
In General: If you accept the patently absurd notion that UN failure to issue the Bush Administration a blank check to attack Iraq as some sort of "interference with America's soverignty" then you have a curious notion of what soverignty is, and an almost paranoid view of what UN membership entails. You better put your tinfoil hat back on and tune your scanner to the helicopter frequency before you read any more.

Vick -

I don't see working through the UN and defending America's interests as mutually exclusive. President Bush is using Saddam's defiance of the U.N. as one of his reasons for going to war. President Bush is attempting to work through the U.N. for a resolution to the confrontation with North Korea (and he better find one there, or someplace else diplomaticly, because that's a clusterfuck that makes Iraq look like a Sunday School picnic). The U.S. cannot possibly solve every problem with military power. Further withdrawal from the UN could only damage our credibility when we need them - India/Pakistan comes to mind first, but there could be other situations.

In 1950 the US invoked the UN to oppose the invasion of South Korea. In 1956, 1968, and 1979 the United States blasted the Soviets at the UN and elsewhere for invading small countries when they felt their interests were threatened. In 1956 President Eisenhower blasted our allies France, Britain and Isreal for invading Egypt and using force to solve an international dispute (the quote you correctly identified the other day). That's not top secret information - that's recent world history. We now appear to be abandoning that position. I think that's where some of the feeling that "there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence" is coming from.

[The Other Steve]

Vick the terrorist attack in Bali occurred in December when two bombs were planted inside and outside a popular tourist bar and exploded at a time when the bar was packed.

The Indonesians were so overwhelmed by the incident that they allowed Australian Federal Police experts and our intelligence organisation to go in and assist with the investigations.

Our people quickly found evidence that took them to one of the bombers and when he was arrested he gave up a number of others in his cell. It appears that he, and several others were trained in Afghanistan by Bin Laden's group and then returned to Indonesia where they were responsible for a number of bombings where Christian churches were targeted.

The Bali bombing was the first aimed at westerners and it is still not really clear if the cell was acting independently or following orders from Bin Laden.

That terrorist cell also has links to a radical Islamic group who operate in a number of Asian countries and whose stated aim is an Islamic state that will stretch from the Phillipines down through Malaysia and Thailand, through Indonesia and take in Australia.

The group also has links to Bin Laden and they are believed to have sleepers here in Australia.

I hope that gives you some background on the situation as it currently stands regarding the terrorists.

On the political front with Indonesia everything is smiles and handshakes on the surface but you don't have to dig too deep before you find a lot of tension.

The Indonesian army has had a great dislike for us since the 1960's when we stopped them from invading parts of the newly formed Malaysia. They had vastly superior numbers but were poorly trained and even though they tried to mount a guerilla campaign we beat them at their own game.

Things have only got worse since East Timor where they again lost face when confronted with our people and the Bali bombing didn't help things either. Their security people had no clue and they didn't like it when their President agreed to allow our experts in to assist with the investigations.

[Vick]

PD - I'll take it the tinfoil crack wasn't aimed at me :nyanya:

JR - thanks for your insight
Guess where I'm still conflicted is in the past we (the USA) have been able (on occasion) to further our means via the UN and currently we are not able to do that and are basically ready to take our ball and go home so to speak, but we must act in our own best interests even if that includes turning our back on the UN

Can the UN really work with 159(?) representatives all with different agendas and interests?
and if it's its primary function and reason for its very creation was to avoid war .... um not sure how well that has worked

The Other Steve - much thanks for the info, I was aware of the Bali terrorist attack but not aware of long standing tensions between Australia and Indonesia



Last edited by Vick at Feb 28 2003, 05:14 PM

[cj]

Originally posted by Vick@Feb 28 2003, 02:24 PM
Some very well expressed and thought provoking posts here over the last few pages
Which proves my point that good strong viable ideas and concepts will stand up on their own merits even in the face of opposition

CJ - Could you please share more information why you feel this way? -
"the answer is you would not defend us until our assets were at risk, then you'd jump in and help on the condition that you own or control our assets"

also could someone (maybe The Other Steve or CJ) - please show me where I can find a synopsis of information related to Australia was victim to a terrorist attack (in bali) which lost 170 (mostly) australian lives due to our immediate and very public support of usa?
Also any information regarding the concerns that Australia has regarding possible conflicts with Indonesia and (the possibility of a) lack of support from the USA

I'm lazy and you are better versed in this area than I and I would like to know more about it

At this point and time Australia and the UK are the USA's only allies and if Australian's feel the US would not support them in kind (which we should!!) I'd like to know more about it and the causes and conditions
Bali Terrorist Attack - search on google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=bali+terrorist+attack)

Australia and East Timor - search on google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=australia+and+east+timor)

Usa support for Indonesia (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/EastTimor/USUKSupport.asp)

General East Timor (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/EastTimor.asp)

The Media Coverage (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/EastTimor/Media.asp)

Indonesia Info (http://goasiapacific.com/specials/indon/default.htm)Bali Bombings (http://www.goasiapacific.com/specials/indon/analysis_index.htm)

[cj]

On Australia Day, U.S. Rights Group Demands that Australian Government Stop Bullying East Timor (http://www.etan.org/news/2003a/01aust.htm)

to some americans, we are seen as the bully ...

here's some information on our aid to east timor since indonesia invaded in 78
Aid to East Timor (http://www.ausaid.gov.au/hottopics/topic.cfm?Id=9240_3238_6417_181_3846)

Amnesty international letter to clinton to stop providing weapons to indonesia (http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/1999/easttimor09231999.html)

a us based east timor activist opinion on usa involvment (http://www.etra.zip.com.au/usa.html)

[Vick]

CJ - thanks for the time and effort to put those links here
A lot to take in there ....

[RawAlex]

Vick, one of the things Americans have not had to be in a long time is scared. Since the end of the cold war, the falling of the Berlin Wall, there has not been an enemy that could harm America directly.

9/11 changed that.

In a weird way, non-super power countries always feel that fear... that they could be victims of an attack, a war...

Alex

[Joe Sixpack]

I have an American Ego and am proud of it and I am proud of America and proud to be an American, even with all the challenges we face
I believe that America is the finest country in the world, that's not to say any other people or country are beneath or not equal to America

How many countries have you been to?



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Mar 1 2003, 11:44 PM

[Winetalk.com]

I was in over 50..so?
I have an American Ego too
;-))

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 1 2003, 11:29 AM
Vick, one of the things Americans have not had to be in a long time is scared. Since the end of the cold war, the falling of the Berlin Wall, there has not been an enemy that could harm America directly.

9/11 changed that.

In a weird way, non-super power countries always feel that fear... that they could be victims of an attack, a war...

Alex
Alex, the difference between super powers and not super powers is what super powers can do about to dissipate the fear...
super powers eliminate the source of fear,
while not superpowers only wish they could

[Torone]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 28 2003, 03:37 AM
Look ... I'm still waiting to see something Alex ever posted that was "anti-American." As I pointed out in an earlier post, IMHO he's taken any number of positions that seem to me no different than a typical American liberal. Now, if you are the sort of moron who thinks that U.S. liberals are antiAmerican, then you're not worth the time it takes to talk to, so you can join Sword and quit reading now.

Hell - I spent ten years in the U.S. Navy and I get accused of being anti-American all the time, sometimes here and quite often on other boards. Why, according to "dozenchickens" I'm a pansy liberal loser who hates everything and has nothing to live for - and I'm almost as proud of that as I am of being called a communist by Torone.

There are a lot of people on the boards these days who take disagreeing with American policy as being antiAmerican. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who start hysterical shouts of antiAmericanism if you are critical of the Bush Administration. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who get their underwear tied in a knot screaming about antiAmericanism if you suggest there may not be a connection between Saddam and alQaida.

What some people seem to regard as "antiAmerican" to me seems like nothing more than debate and an alternative opinion. It ranges from intelligent to moronic.

I haven't agreed with a lot that Alex has posted - but the suggestion that he is somehow antiAmerican because of what he's posted is absurd, IMHO.
According to your philosophy, even bin Laden is not really not Anti-American...

[Torone]

Originally posted by KC+Feb 28 2003, 03:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (KC @ Feb 28 2003, 03:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--cj@Feb 28 2003, 03:41 AM
... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.
Now the name calling starts?

Someone is really taking this debate personally now..[/b][/quote]
I guess Pd's frequent references to people on the right as morons doesn't qualify as name-calling, since it comes from a self-described Liberal...?



Last edited by Torone at Mar 2 2003, 09:29 AM

[Torone]

Anyhow, I have a solution to much of this blather...
End ALL foreign aid, pull out of the UN (thereby ending its' existence); and ask the other countries of the world to pay up front for the protection they receive from us. It is sort of a 'user pays' setup. Sort of like the many parks, etc. that we taxpayers pay to build and support and still have to pay to visit. :nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 08:56 AM
According to your philosophy, even bin Laden is not really not Anti-American...

I guess Pd's frequences to people on the right as morons doesn't qualify as name-calling, since it comes from a self-described Liberal...?
Torone ... there are some ideas that I consider moronic. People who question my patriotism are morons at best. People who make statements suggesting that I somehow don't consider binLaden as anitAmierican prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they may be a moron.

The suggestion that liberals are part of a vast communuist conspiracy is a moronic idea. The assertion by reactionaries such as Ann Colter that liberalism equates to being a trator is equally moronic.

The suggestion that everyone opposed to a war with Iraq is a communist/socialist is an extremely moronic idea. The idea that the U.N. is interfering with our soverignty may not be moronic (but it's close) - it just proves somebody doesn't have a clue what soverignty is.

Characterizations of every European country as socialist which is really communist is moronic.

I don't instantly characterize conservatives as morons. They have to earn that designation. Reactionaries, just like communists, socialists, and members of PETA, do so very quickly.

[Torone]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy+Mar 2 2003, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PornoDoggy @ Mar 2 2003, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Torone@Mar 2 2003, 08:56 AM
According to your philosophy, even bin Laden is not really not Anti-American...

I guess Pd's frequences to people on the right as morons doesn't qualify as name-calling, since it comes from a self-described Liberal...?
Torone ... there are some ideas that I consider moronic. People who question my patriotism are morons at best. People who make statements suggesting that I somehow don't consider binLaden as anitAmierican prove beyond any reasonable doubt that they may be a moron.

The suggestion that liberals are part of a vast communuist conspiracy is a moronic idea. The assertion by reactionaries such as Ann Colter that liberalism equates to being a trator is equally moronic.

The suggestion that everyone opposed to a war with Iraq is a communist/socialist is an extremely moronic idea. The idea that the U.N. is interfering with our soverignty may not be moronic (but it's close) - it just proves somebody doesn't have a clue what soverignty is.

Characterizations of every European country as socialist which is really communist is moronic.

I don't instantly characterize conservatives as morons. They have to earn that designation. Reactionaries, just like communists, socialists, and members of PETA, do so very quickly.[/b][/quote]
You prove my point about the name-calling. As far as the Socialist/Communist thing, I posted the definitions for you...Prove me wrong. Show me that the Liberals are not reaching 'way out into left field to become as Marxist as possible.

BTW, research ANSWER (which backed many of the Anti-American rallies) and post who is backing them. While you're at it, do the same for an organization called 'Not In Our Name', which also sponsored a number of the rallies. If you want, I'll make that a dare; because I've heard their representatives state who their backers were.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 10:11 AM
While you're at it, do the same for an organization called 'Not In Our Name', which also sponsored a number of the rallies. If you want, I'll make that a dare; because I've heard their representatives state who their backers were.
Torone,

What dirt do you have on "Not In Our Name'?

[PornoDoggy]

Well, well, well ... A.N.S.W.E.R. does seem to be quite the group. I didn't realize Vietnam Veterans Against the War still existed, and had no idea anyone still talked about Leonard Peltier or Mumia Abu-Jamal. I really didn't know that those sort of folks were still around - but since the Klan and the American Nazis ain't gone, and the Birchers seem to have become mainstream Republicans, it doesn't come as a terrible suprise.

"Not in My Name" does seem to be cut from somewhat the same cloth, even if quite not so far to the left of the bolt.

Which of course, proves NOTHING. That the strident wackos of the lunatic left and the limosine liberals like Asner and Baez are against the war isn't exactly startling news. That their names appeared as organizers of the antiwar marches is even less suprising. That does not mean that the entire antiwar movement consists of communists and socialists and whatever the hell other kind of wackos people those groups.

Torone, in the 1940s and 1950s - years before it became popular - the Communist Party of the United States was active in issues of racial justice. Does that mean that the civil rights movement was a communist plot? Some of the most violent militia groups are very strident defenders of the 2nd Ammendment - are all opponents of gun control militia members? It fits your logic, does it not? I saw on the news the other day where the good old KKK wants to hold a rally in Augusta during the Masters Golf Tourney to support the club's right to exclude women - does that mean that the KKK is behind the Master's stance?

Name calling? Bud, if you think being called a moron is worse than being accused of being a communist or of being considered unpatriotic, I can understand why you are offended - but I don't see much difference. Liberals and communists sometimes take the same positions on things - that does not mean that liberals ARE communists. Conservatives and facists sometimes take the same position on things - that does not mean conservatives are facists. Some of the arguements you make about the U.N., for example, could be taken verbatim from the texts of the KKK or the militias that spawned Timothy McVeigh. Can I use your logic to infer you are KKK or a militia member? That's the simple minded logic of the extremist.

I don't have to prove that I'm not a Marxist, Tailgunner ... those days are long gone, and those theories and tactics have long since been discredited. I am to an American Communist what you are to an American Nazi - that is, we support some of the same ideas without coming close to buying the whole package. I'm sorry if you refuse to see that.

[RawAlex]

Pornodoggy, I have learned a very important lesson here on Oprano in the last month or so:

Just like a family gathering, it is best not to discuss religeon or politics.

There are a few people on the extremes of each argument that are so far off the end of the spectrum that they are not able to see the "gradients" at the other end of the scale - the angle is too severe. When you get down low enough, it is hard to see the forest for all the trees.

I ain't a communist either - but I can sure understand how certain people can think it - they view is obscured by the people clustered around the center (as they see it) like Limbaugh and Falwell. I am not name calling, I am not finger pointing, I am just pointing something out that the actions of all involved have come to show.

Like I said, discussing certain issues just isn't going to be productive for anyone - and actually drives wedges between people and lowers the value of oprano as a whole. So I opted out. You aren't going to change anyones opinion here, so don't hurt yourself trying.

Alex

[PornoDoggy]

Thank you for your concern, Alex, but Tororne and I have been down this road before, and will again. :D Momma told me never discuss politics, religion or sex - and I pay about as much attention to that as I do most of what momma told me.

But "hurt myself trying?" I'm not sure what you mean by that. I believe there is an Oprano pearl out there that suggests it not wise to take anything said on a messageboard too damn seriously - and I never do. In "real life" I have several close friends who consider Rush Limbaugh a pretty smart fellow, even if he is a little too liberal. So if your concern is that I become to personally invested in the discussions of politics, that isn't going to happen.

I've sometimes wondered if it could end up hurting me business wise - if I run the risk of alienating a contact somewhere down the line that I may need, or that my opinions will preclude us working together for our mutual benefit sometime in the future. I'd like to think that people are more mature than that - and I do believe that most people are - but I'd be a fool not to acknowledge at least the possibility that's true. In the end, though, I'm not too concerned with that either ... I've never lived my life that way, and ain't gonna start now.

[RawAlex]

But "hurt myself trying?" I'm not sure what you mean by that. I believe there is an Oprano pearl out there that suggests it not wise to take anything said on a messageboard too damn seriously - and I never do

Actually, it really comes down to this: 99% of what is said on a message board goes by unremarked later in life... we run at the speed of light here, and what happened last month is already long gone... but just like a healed cut, there are things that always remain to remind you - people don't forget, they just are actually polite enough not to mention things. But those things do change their opinion of ya.

Politics and religeon are two places we all pretty much differ, and where many people have very firm and unshakable beliefs / opinions. There is no upside to back and forth on it, only downside. the polite people above will judge you later with your comments.

So, like I said, why hurt yourself? You have put out a good version of your opinions, I pretty much understand them (don't agree with all of them, but that is kewl) - and I am sure everyone else who will every understand them does. No upside from here on out...

Alex :awinky:

[Lisa]

I'm not buying into this discussion...but is this Oprano's first 4 page thread? :)

[RawAlex]

Extra in Colin's pay packet next week.... :wnw: :wnw: :wnw:

Alex

[cj]

Originally posted by Torone@Mar 2 2003, 09:33 AM
Anyhow, I have a solution to much of this blather...
End ALL foreign aid, pull out of the UN (thereby ending its' existence); and ask the other countries of the world to pay up front for the protection they receive from us. It is sort of a 'user pays' setup. Sort of like the many parks, etc. that we taxpayers pay to build and support and still have to pay to visit. :nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:
good idea torone ...

if that happens, i predict it will be around 5 years before the world gangs up on america and the UN starts discussing the concept of disarming america of their nuclear weapons. you'd be fucked in no time! don't underestimate what many other countries do to help america maintain their position as top dog. you might be important, but your not THAT important.

but hey, go ahead, i'd love to turn you away as a refugee to my country!

:nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

hasn't this fucking thread died yet?!?!?!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 2 2003, 10:06 PM
Extra in Colin's pay packet next week.... :wnw: :wnw: :wnw:

Alex
:okthumb:

[HoneyBlond]

I haven't yet been fortunate enough to have visited Oz, but I'm excited to visit. I know several Aussies and hear it's a beautiful place!!

Here is some useful info on Australia for your impending trip KC :awinky:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A53650


When I come visit I'll buy you a pack of Tim Tams and we can get "pissed" drinking Foster's together!!


As a footnote for people with feet: Australians don't drink Fosters.
We export it, we don't drink that crap ourselves. :P

[Torone]

Originally posted by cj+Mar 3 2003, 02:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cj @ Mar 3 2003, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Torone@Mar 2 2003, 09:33 AM
Anyhow, I have a solution to much of this blather...
End ALL foreign aid, pull out of the UN (thereby ending its' existence); and ask the other countries of the world to pay up front for the protection they receive from us. It is sort of a 'user pays' setup. Sort of like the many parks, etc. that we taxpayers pay to build and support and still have to pay to visit. :nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:
good idea torone ...

if that happens, i predict it will be around 5 years before the world gangs up on america and the UN starts discussing the concept of disarming america of their nuclear weapons. you'd be fucked in no time! don't underestimate what many other countries do to help america maintain their position as top dog. you might be important, but your not THAT important.

but hey, go ahead, i'd love to turn you away as a refugee to my country!

:nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

hasn't this fucking thread died yet?!?!?![/b][/quote]
you missed part of the point...If the US pulls out of the UN, the UN ceases to exist. We are their main source of funds, as well as their main source of military power. Also, you don't think that any other country being armed well enough to threaten us would be acceptable, do you?

[JR]

Originally posted by Torone@Mar 3 2003, 04:27 AM

you missed part of the point...If the US pulls out of the UN, the UN ceases to exist. We are their main source of funds, as well as their main source of military power. Also, you don't think that any other country being armed well enough to threaten us would be acceptable, do you?
"we" are their main source of funds?

"we" did not pay our bills there and at one point owed around
$1,000,000,000.00 in debt to the UN if i am not mistaken.

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by JR@Mar 3 2003, 07:46 AM

"we" are their main source of funds?
yup, we pay about 25% of UN funding
same goes for NATO about 33% there.

[KC]

Originally posted by HoneyBlond@Mar 3 2003, 05:56 AM
I haven't yet been fortunate enough to have visited Oz, but I'm excited to visit. I know several Aussies and hear it's a beautiful place!!

Here is some useful info on Australia for your impending trip KC :awinky:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A53650


When I come visit I'll buy you a pack of Tim Tams and we can get "pissed" drinking Foster's together!!


As a footnote for people with feet: Australians don't drink Fosters.
We export it, we don't drink that crap ourselves. :P
Thanks for the tips ;) haha

I knew about the Foster's thing.. I just wanted to piss off CJ!!! ;)

[Carrie]

Originally posted by cj@Feb 28 2003, 03:41 AM
you jumped on the bandwagon and proved you hadn't done any prior reading on what our discussion was about or what my posts are responding to. you are trying to make this about war on iraq or what the world hasn't done for america or whatever other crap your going on with ... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.

They seem to have more patience left though so carrie-on ...
My goodness.
I browse back through to see what transpired in the last few days and I find this.
CJ, you've just proven unequivocally that you haven't the slightest concept of how to separate debate from personal feelings or attacks.
Therefore, you lose the argument.

I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are - but since the last time I asked you a direct question you totally sidestepped it and started slinging insults, I won't expect an answer. Have fun crumbling into a heated mass of anger and emotion... the rest of us "ignorants" will be sitting over here calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together.

JR - Fuckin' awesome post. :okthumb: :okthumb:

[T-Rav]

sweet fancy moses, i can't believe this thread is 4 pages long and still going...

has anything happened in the last 2-3 pages? or is it just self indulgent bullshit like the begining of the thread? :P

i don't think i have the "intestinal fortitude" to go back and read all of this...

unless someone suggests it is worth reading...and you better not pull a fast one on me, i'll hunt you down... :D

[Carrie]

T-Rav if you missed JR's really long post on Page 3 it's definitely worth reading.

[cj]

Originally posted by Carrie+Mar 3 2003, 07:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Mar 3 2003, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--cj@Feb 28 2003, 03:41 AM
you jumped on the bandwagon and proved you hadn't done any prior reading on what our discussion was about or what my posts are responding to. you are trying to make this about war on iraq or what the world hasn't done for america or whatever other crap your going on with ... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.

They seem to have more patience left though so carrie-on ...
My goodness.
I browse back through to see what transpired in the last few days and I find this.
CJ, you've just proven unequivocally that you haven't the slightest concept of how to separate debate from personal feelings or attacks.
Therefore, you lose the argument.

I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are - but since the last time I asked you a direct question you totally sidestepped it and started slinging insults, I won't expect an answer. Have fun crumbling into a heated mass of anger and emotion... the rest of us "ignorants" will be sitting over here calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together.

JR - Fuckin' awesome post. :okthumb: :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
LOL
carrie, you'll notice i've not started off any of my posts with 'i like you but ...'
i've seen you around for about a year or so, we've conversed once before on netpond where you also jumped on me for a comment without reading what I was commenting on - seem familiar? I notice you do it regularly in your rhetoric, on all controversial subjects. I can't remember what subject it was in this case but it forms my opinion of you and your first post in this thread.

in the same post you called this an argument, but then said you'll be "calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together."

ummm ... which is it sweetie? are we discussing or arguing? I can do both ... do me a favor though first, read the meaning of the word 'debate', -the part about considering opposing viewpoints. are you ready to do that? There's rarely a winner or loser in 'debates', hence why its called a debate and not a 'competition' or a 'challenge' or a 'contest'.

5 entries found for debate.
de·bate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v. intr.
To consider something; deliberate.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
Obsolete. To fight or quarrel.

now, onto addressing your points, because as little respect as I have for you, I do agree that there have not been any valid points addressed so far in our banter back and forward, just insults ... so, which questions did I sidestep?

I didn't see any questions in any of your posts just statements about what the rest of the world aren't doing to help america.

please feel free to repeat the questions i missed ....

is this one?
>>I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are

in this post i was referring to you, and the other person who immediately responded after you ... both of you were talking about 'why we should bomb iraq' and 'why america doesn't get enough support in the UN'. none of the rest of us were talking about that, only you ... showing ignorance to the issues being discussed. I find that those who usually do this simply don't understand the original point of discussion or are too lazy to read it, therefore comment on something sideline or semi-relevant which they do have an opinion on. you used my post about something else to argue an irrelevant point.

and YES. i took great offence to your comment about no one else standing up and supporting america, because no matter how you intended it to be interpreted, it came out as a blatantly incorrect statement about my country and its support for your country. I found the post disrespectful and insulting and you'll notice an american also interpreted it the same way.

But no, i don't think you are anti australia. i doubt you know where it is on the map.

eagerly awaiting your 'questions'

[Opti]

Yee Haa.. It's A Girl Fight!! :bjump: :bjump: :bjump:

:yowsa:

[PornoDoggy]

Popcorn?

[Opti]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 4 2003, 01:16 PM
Popcorn?

Maybe a beer and a couple of deck chairs too eh PD? :biglaugh:

[cj]

don't get too excited, we aren't taking our clothes off or anything

:rolleyes:

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by cj@Mar 3 2003, 09:13 PM
don't get too excited, we aren't taking our clothes off or anything

:rolleyes:
Well... we can hope can't we? :yowsa: Strangner things have happened at Oprano!! :groucho:

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Opti+Mar 3 2003, 08:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Opti @ Mar 3 2003, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PornoDoggy@Mar 4 2003, 01:16 PM
Popcorn?

Maybe a beer and a couple of deck chairs too eh PD? :biglaugh:[/b][/quote]
I'll have a double espresso ... which means more beer for you. Deck chairs would be good, but a couple of recliners would be better.

[The Other Steve]

Whose got the webcam 'cause I'm standing here with a usb cable :)

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by T-Rav@Mar 3 2003, 07:13 PM
sweet fancy moses, i can't believe this thread is 4 pages long and still going...

has anything happened in the last 2-3 pages? or is it just self indulgent bullshit like the begining of the thread? :P

i don't think i have the "intestinal fortitude" to go back and read all of this...

unless someone suggests it is worth reading...and you better not pull a fast one on me, i'll hunt you down... :D
No, the last few pages are even better!

I suggest reading it. I'll email you my address.

[Almighty Colin]

CJ,

If we didn't have this discussion I would have never learned about East Timor. I conclude that pissing is the proper path to learning. Witness that as the piss dies down, the conversation turns to espresso, beer, and popcorn. Personally, I'd rather piss and learn than talk about food and drink.

For the record, you said to me "I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but" which is the same sort of technique you refer to above. Should we both retire it or continue on? I kind of like it myself and also thought it clever when you used it - even more clever than the way I used it.

[cj]

Originally posted by Colin@Mar 4 2003, 06:56 AM
CJ,

If we didn't have this discussion I would have never learned about East Timor.
and if it weren't for watching 5 years of pissing i would know nothing about american politics instead of very little ;-)))

I conclude that pissing is the proper path to learning. Witness that as the piss dies down, the conversation turns to espresso, beer, and popcorn. Personally, I'd rather piss and learn than talk about food and drink.

I don't think this thread has fully died down yet :awinky: but yes, i agree that as with every heated argument there is a calm that follows where (some of) the participants realize how much they almost agreed all along.

For the record, you said to me "I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but" which is the same sort of technique you refer to above. Should we both retire it or continue on? I kind of like it myself and also thought it clever when you used it - even more clever than the way I used it

retire or continue the technique? or the discussion?
i doubt we could stop it if we tried! LOL

[Almighty Colin]

CJ,

Ignoring this thread has been like trying to look away from a plane wreck. Everyone keeps trying but the carnage continues. I think this thread IS starting to die down. Everyone is starting to get along and we're starting to discuss the thread itself. Reminiscent reflective ruminations killed the posting star.

Anyway - I'm going to read up on North American history today and study my Rand McNally
so Alex can't include me in his list of dumb Americans ["most Americans can't find Canada on a map or understand their systems of government and social services"].

[Torone]

The hulk of a man with a beer in is hand
Looked like a drunk old fool
And I knew if I hit him right
Why I could knock him off-a that stool
But ever'body they said "Watch out,
Hey, that's Tiger Man McCool"
He's had a whole lot of fights
And he's always come out a WINNER

Yea!, he's A WINNER.

But I'd had myself about five too many
And I walked up tall and proud
I faced his back and I faced the fact
That he had never stooped or bowed
I said, "Tiger Man, you're a pussycat"
And a hush fell on the crowd
I said let's you and me go outside and see
Who's A WINNER.

Well, he gripped the bar with one big hairy hand
And he braced against the wall
He slowly looked up from his beer
My God, that man was tall
He said boy, I see you're a scrapper
So just before you fall
I'm gonna tell you just a little
'Bout what it means to be A WINNER.

He said "Now you see these bright white smiling teeth
You know they ain't my own
Mine rolled away like chicklets
Down the street in San Antone
But I left that person, cursin'
Nursin' seven broken bones
And he, uh, only broke, uh, three of mine
That makes me THE WINNER."

He said "Now behind this grin, I got steel pins
That holds my jaw in place
A trophy of my most successful
Motorcycle race
And each morning when I wake and touch
This scar across my face
It reminds me of all I got
by being A WINNER."

"Now this broken back was a dying act
Of a handsome Harry Clay
That sticky Cincinnati night
I stole his wife away
But that woman she gets uglier
And she gets meaner every day
But I got her, boy
that's what makes me A WINNER

He said "You gotta speak loud when you challenge me son
'Cause it's hard for me to hear
With this twisted neck and these migrane pains
And this big old cauliflower ear
And if it wasn't for this glass eye of mine
Why, I'd shed a happy tear
To think of all you're gonna get
By being A WINNER."

I got ar-th-rit-ic elbows, son
I got dislocated knees
From pickin' fights with thunderstorms
And chargin' into trees
And my nose's been broke so often
I might lose it if I sneeze
And son, you say you
still wanna be A WINNER."

"Now you remind me a lot of my younger days
With your knuckles a-clenchin' white
But boy, I'm gonna sit right here
And sip this beer all night
And if there's somethin' that you gotta gain or prove
by winnin' some silly fight
Well, OK, I quit, I lose
You're THE WINNER."

Oh, I stumbled from that barroom
Not so tall and not so proud
And behind me I still hear
the hoots and laughter of the crowd
But my eyes still see and my nose still works
And my teeth are still in my mouth
And you know, I guess that
Makes me THE WINNER.
:nyanya: :groucho: :headwall: :matey: :okthumb:



Last edited by Torone at Mar 4 2003, 10:04 AM

[RawAlex]

Colin, nothing short of a full frontal labotomy would dumbyou down enough to not know where Canada is... :-)

Part of this thread dying down and people being "calm" is that some of us refuse to get dragged back into the mud for another round. I have bit my tongue a few times along the way, deciding that there really isn't a benefit to saying what I really wanted to say. Deciding not to discuss politics in these circumstances has been a real plus, not a negative.

It's much more enjoyable that way, I think.

Alex

[gigi]

I love debates....I can't help but express my opinions...hehe...it's in my nature. :awinky:

But what good is a debate where everyone agrees? Without opposite views the world (and debates) would be BORING!

As CJ said, debates aren't about winning or losing.....they are mostly about the spectators...the debatees being able to present their position in the best way to the spectators, in order for them to get the most well-rounded idea of the issues.

But debates are nothing without correct information. And, as we've seen on the board, many of us (including me) didn't have all the information in order to make an informed decision on where we stood.....hence, the learning begins.

I think we ALL learn in a debate....and I love to learn....so I guess that's why I love debates so much. :yowsa:

I had no idea about East Timor either.....

Can someone pass me a mocha decaf? Espresso gives me the jitters.
:groucho:

[Almighty Colin]

Gigi,

I've never won a debate in my life. I've never convinced anyone by the end of a conversation that I was right and they were wrong. I have, however, lost debates. I have admitted by the end of a debate that I was wrong. Winning is not a goal I am interested in. Losing is.

In 1996, I had the good fortune to teach a high-school debate class. One day I split the class into two groups at random. One was to argue for the legality of marijuana, the other that it should be illegal. It was a good debate and both sides made many excellent points. At the end, I asked them what their real opinion was. Seemingly miraculous, every student that had argued for it's legality was "pro" and every student that argued against was "con", even though the groups were chosen completely at random. Everyone claimed to have held their opinion all along.

I concluded the class with "there is your lesson for today".



Last edited by Colin at Mar 4 2003, 12:37 PM

[Nickatilynx]

Look, lets just whack RawAlex and be done with it ;)

[gigi]

HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....

Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?

Very intriguing indeed....

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by gigi@Mar 4 2003, 12:45 PM
HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....

Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?

Very intriguing indeed....
Great question. I think I've learned much more from messageboards than I ever learned previously. We are all experts here!

For me, THE important question is "Why debate?"

To appear clever, to jostle in some strange mysterious pecking order, to win?

None of these things are worth anything in the end. They don't make you a better person and you probably can't win anyway. The whole point about a good debate is that two people have strong beliefs and strong reasons for them. Debating will usually solidify our resolve. It seldom weakens it. I think we are all familiar with having a knock-down, drag-out debate with someone and then thinking "what is WRONG with them?" Over a long period of time though, we sometimes slowly start to realize that some of what they were saying actually made sense.

So for me, I want to start down that process as soon as possible. Quickly ask .. Why do they think that? Where are they coming from? Are they less biased than I? Did they fluster me?
Frustrate me? Is my knowledge weak? Did they surprise me?

For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.

I think it is imperative, even noble, to present one's best argument and defense. Anticipate your "opponent's" best moves if possible. Only in this way will your "adversary" pull out all the stops and maybe somewhere find a backdoor into your mind.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Mar 4 2003, 12:41 PM
Look, lets just whack RawAlex and be done with it ;)
:ph34r:

[T-Rav]

Originally posted by Colin+Mar 4 2003, 01:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Mar 4 2003, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--gigi@Mar 4 2003, 12:45 PM
HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....

Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?

Very intriguing indeed....

For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.

I think it is imperative, even noble, to present one's best argument and defense. Anticipate your "opponent's" best moves if possible. Only in this way will your "adversary" pull out all the stops and maybe somewhere find a backdoor into your mind.[/b][/quote]
very well said...

i have always learned more from debating than any other form of education. and surprisingly over time my opinions and beliefs come from both sides of any "argument" as opposed to defending or opposing an idea.

this has made me seem very "wishy washy" or that i don't have any strong convictions at all. that is simply not the case, i have just learned to see the gray through the black and white. i can literally argue one point of view one day, and then the next day argue the other side with equal passion and vigor.

hrmm...i think i need a beer...

[gigi]

For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.

My goal isn't necessarily changing my opinion....but rather to maybe learn a few things I didn't know before. Whether it changes my opinion, or solidifies my current one I'm still a winner. [and I'm guessing that's what you were saying all along...hahaha]

Sooo, now that we've changed this debate thread into a thread about debating.....I think we should get back to the debate!!

Now....where were we? :blink:

[Carrie]

"carrie, you'll notice i've not started off any of my posts with 'i like you but ...'"

And this should impress me (or not) why?

"i've seen you around for about a year or so, we've conversed once before on netpond where you also jumped on me for a comment without reading what I was commenting on - seem familiar? I notice you do it regularly in your rhetoric, on all controversial subjects. I can't remember what subject it was in this case but it forms my opinion of you and your first post in this thread. "

Fascinating - the subject was so important that you can't even remember what it was, yet you find it relevant to basing the rest of your opinions, and your basis for argument, on.

"ummm ... which is it sweetie? are we discussing or arguing?"

The rest of us are discussing. You, however, seem to be arguing.

" I can do both"

I have yet to see evidence of this.

"now, onto addressing your points, because as little respect as I have for you, I do agree that there have not been any valid points addressed so far in our banter back and forward, just insults ... so, which questions did I sidestep?"

No dear, you were the one throwing insults, not I. As hard as you may try to bait me into it, I have yet to lower myself to your level.
As for which questions you sidestepped, it would be easy enough for you to browse back and discover this for yourself.

"I didn't see any questions in any of your posts just statements about what the rest of the world aren't doing to help america. "

Yes, it's evident that you haven't taken the time to read any of my posts, it's doubtful you even skimmed them. Yet still you feel the need to reply and throw barbs.

"and YES. i took great offence to your comment "

Congratulations. You have an opinion.

"But no, i don't think you are anti australia. i doubt you know where it is on the map."

Wow. Now that was truly, *truly* an insult worthy of the time it took to type. Really. (By the way, that's called sarcasm. You may want to look that up as well.)

"eagerly awaiting your 'questions'"

Don't bother - I'm not going to. You've exhibited the capacity to read - although the comprehension is questionable - so you're more than capable of finding those questions yourself.

If you want to continue overreacting to imagined insults and trying to find excuses to throw barbs in this and other threads - have fun. Some of us know better than to take what is said on message boards so personally. But hey, if grade-school name-calling is what floats your boat, more power to you. You show your true level of maturity with every attempt, especially when the posts go unanswered.

Which they will after this, because quite simply, "sweetie", you're not worth my time. If I want to hear a conversation based around name-calling and perceived self-importance, I can simply listen to my toddlers arguing over who gets to play with the Gameboy after dinner.

[Sword]

Originally posted by T-Rav@Mar 4 2003, 01:38 PM
i can literally argue one point of view one day, and then the next day argue the other side with equal passion and vigor.
I believe they make medication for that now. You should look into it.

:nyanya:
:nyanya:



Last edited by Sword at Mar 5 2003, 03:02 AM

[cj]

carrie, that was SUCH a copout

you claim I'm not worth the time to answer the real issues we were discussing in the thread and yet you have time to quote every single line from my post with a reason why you don't have the time to respond!!?!?!?!?

LAME!!!!

:rolleyes:

[JR]

Kramer: Cat fight?

Elaine: Ok, WHY? Why do guys do this? What is so appealing to men about a cat fight?

Kramer: Yeye cat fight!

Jerry: Because men think if women are grabbing and clawing at each other there's a chance that.... they might somehow kiss.

Kramer: T-t-t-t...

http://www.pleasurelabs.com/pics/kr2.jpg

[cj]

sorry to disappoint JR, carrie-on doesn't want to discuss things with me anymore because I remind her of her toddlers .....

she thinks i'm resorting to childish name calling!!

:o

don't know where she gets that idea from!!

:rolleyes:

[RawAlex]

Totally unrelated, but I just realized that I have had more threads named after me in the last 30 days than anyone else on Oprano... if that don't get me further up the "asshole" list nothing will!

Alex

[Jeremy-RR]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 5 2003, 12:32 AM
Totally unrelated, but I just realized that I have had more threads named after me in the last 30 days than anyone else on Oprano... if that don't get me further up the "asshole" list nothing will!

Alex
Aha! The secret plan revealed at last!

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 5 2003, 03:32 AM
Totally unrelated, but I just realized that I have had more threads named after me in the last 30 days than anyone else on Oprano... if that don't get me further up the "asshole" list nothing will!

Alex
You've used up your 15 minutes seven separate times already,

[RawAlex]

Actually, Colin, when I look, all of the threads with my name in it were started by either you or JR... I guess you guys really are doing great asshole promotion work for me...

BILLY! TAKE NOTICE! I am more of an asshole than 38th! :-)

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 5 2003, 10:37 AM
Actually, Colin, when I look, all of the threads with my name in it were started by either you or JR... I guess you guys really are doing great asshole promotion work for me...
It's an easy product to market.

[RawAlex]

Hey, I appreciate it... now if you could just talk to Billy and point out to him how good of an asshole I have been, and how I deserve to be MUCH higher on the list (example, I think I have been much more of an asshole than Meni recently....)

It's a tough job, glad your doing it!

Alex

[Winetalk.com]

Alex,
I sent Billy e-mail vouching for your assholiness
;-)))

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Mar 5 2003, 04:18 PM
Alex,
I sent Billy e-mail vouching for your assholiness
;-)))
Damn. I gotta get to work. I've been stuck at #34 for a while.

[RawAlex]

I wonder if I could have a mail in campaign, you know, everyone send a mail to billy and tell him what an asshole I am - I could be asshole of the month! (but I gotta wait a little bit, I don't want to crowd out Peaches, now she has made it to #1 :-)

Alex

[Peaches]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 5 2003, 06:09 PM
(but I gotta wait a little bit, I don't want to crowd out Peaches, now she has made it to #1 :-)

Alex
:ph34r:

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Jeremy-RR@Mar 5 2003, 04:17 AM
Aha! The secret plan revealed at last!
Shhh! Maybe no one will notice! :ph34r:

[RawAlex]

Okay, Last call on this thread - anyone else? :-)

This is a historical thread, one of the longest and most read threads in Oprano history..

kewl :-)

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 5 2003, 03:22 PM
if you could just talk to Billy and point out to him how good of an asshole I have been, and how I deserve to be MUCH higher on the list

Isn't that like placing sign in front of the Eiffel Tower that says "Eiffel Tower"?

[RawAlex]

Colin, no I don't think so... I have been mired in the 30's for quite a while... while run of the mill assholes occupy much higher spots... :-)

This thread will not die...

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 6 2003, 11:29 AM
Colin, no I don't think so... I have been mired in the 30's for quite a while... while run of the mill assholes occupy much higher spots... :-)

This thread will not die...

Alex
Oh, please. Slavick is a bigger asshole than you on even your worst day. Consider that JR is at #49 and he is DEFINITELY a bigger asshole than you.

[RawAlex]

Yeah, but Meni at 15? Come on - I have been much more asshole-ic this month...

Just one of those things, I guess.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 6 2003, 12:57 PM
Come on - I have been much more asshole-ic this month...


Just because other people think you're an asshole doesn't mean you've EARNED it. You get what you earn, not an equal share "according to need".

[Vick]

You know what I'm going do?
I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertable - hot pink with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather interior and big brown baby seal eyes for the headlights.
I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115mph, getting one mile per gallon, sucking down Quarter Pounder cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned nonbiodegradable containers.
When I'm done suckin' down those greaseball burgers, I'm gonna toss the Styrofoam container right out the side and there ain't a goddamned thing anybody can do about it.
You know why?
Because we got the bombs, that's why.
Two words nuclear fuckin weapons, okay?
Russia, Czechslovakia, Romania - they can have all the democracy they want, have a big democracy cakewalk walk through the middle of Tianamen Square and it won't make a lick of difference because we've got the bombs, okay?!

John Wayne's not dead - he's frozen.
And as soon as we find a cure for cancer we're gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off.
You know why?
Have you ever taken a cold shower?
Well multiply that by 15,000,000 times - thats how pissed off the Duke's gonna be.
I'm gonna get the Duke and John Cassavetes and Lee Marvin and Sam Peckinpah and a case of whisky and drive down to Texas...

I'm an ASSHOLE
:moon:

[Vick]

This thread will never die :blink:

[cj]

NOOOOOOO!!!

damn you vick!!!!

:moon:



:P

[PornoDoggy]

If I was a smartass I'd say something about Vick blowing life back into Alex's thread, but that could go all kinds of places on this board.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Mar 13 2003, 04:32 AM
If I was a smartass I'd say something about Vick blowing life back into Alex's thread, but that could go all kinds of places on this board.
Good thing you're not!

[Trev]

*YAWN*

can we get over this now <_<


*Edit* I'm not posting again to drag this on so I'm conceding to Collins post below.

The last word is yours for now.... :wnw:



Last edited by Trev at Mar 13 2003, 12:37 PM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Trev@Mar 13 2003, 05:53 AM
*YAWN*

can we get over this now <_<
This is what happens when a bunch of pornographers try to get the last word.

[Vick]

Who's trying to get the last word? :P

'cause I'm an asshole :yowsa:

[RawAlex]

Yeah, it can be endless... just people posting nothing just to get their names on the bottom of the page...

This is the alltime most read / most posted to thread in OPrano history... it's gotta be worth something :-)

Alex

[RawAlex]

Is this thread dead yet ? :-)

Alex

[Vick]

At least it wasn't me who brought it back this time

Alex are you trying to get he last word? :D

[RawAlex]

Nope... just going for the all time oprano record... can we make it to 7 pages? :-)

Alex

[kath]

Sure we can make it to 7 pages...this is still discussion worthy.

You know Alex - maybe this is a good opportunity to tell you something that has been bothering me for a long time. We talk to people on the boards and form opinions about them from their words - these opinions come up inside us sometimes without our really even realizing it. Unfortunately, what is said on the boards - or in a single email exchange - doesn't properly sum up the whole of that person and often times our opinions are just DEAD WRONG.

We had an email exchange over a year ago - maybe closer to two - I doubt you even remember it, but I sure do. I was really angry at a question that you asked of me - it was kind of sarcastic and at the time I thought it was way off base. Now that I've removed myself from the "place that I was before" I see what you were trying to say. I don't think you're a bad guy - I just think you call 'em like you see 'em and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Some people can't take that - at the time I sure couldn't. I see a lot of people debate you, your posts and your thoughts in lots of different threads. You make people think - even when it's an argument - your points either help people see things from another perspective, or just strengthen their own ideals.

I guess I just wanted to say that I pegged you wrong - and I bet a lot of others have done the same over the years. Hats off to ya Alex - we may not always agree but hey, that's what makes it interesting. :okthumb:

[RawAlex]

Kath, life is so boring when everyone agrees with you. Being part of the crowd is just that.. crowded. There is nothing to be learned in a line of people all headed the same way.

I have an opinion, and unlike some, I am not scared to admit it. People who just lurk on boards think it is very hard just to post - posting your true opinions are even harder!

Sometimes I might sound mean, or a little off base, but I even ask rhetorical questions firmly... yes, it does throw people now and again...

thanks for the flowers (a quebecois expressing would add "now where's the pot?")... :-)

Alex

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 25 2003, 07:03 PM
Kath, life is so boring when everyone agrees with you. Being part of the crowd is just that.. crowded. There is nothing to be learned in a line of people all headed the same way.

I have an opinion, and unlike some, I am not scared to admit it. People who just lurk on boards think it is very hard just to post - posting your true opinions are even harder!

what direction are you headed that every other Liberal Democrat is not? ... you remind me of [Labret] on GFY... whom i have dubbed, "The rugged individual who is no different than all the other rugged individuals".

there are 1000's threads of kids on GFY that band together and moo in unison that everyone else that does not agree with them is acting like "cattle".

*sigh*

"i'm unique and my opinion is valid because i am not brainwashed"
"my news is better than your news"
"CNN sucks... BBC rocks"

etc etc etc.

often, you sound more like a talking doll that can pull its own string.

your unique in your opinions, only when your opinion is unique.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 25 2003, 07:03 PM
posting your true opinions are even harder!


I'll bite. How could someone post a "false" opinion?

[RawAlex]

False opinions are easy.... sometimes people post thngs just to get other people going. Sometimes people post things contrary to their personal beliefs just to see if they can get a rise out of the other side. It happens around here all the time...

JR, sorry, I was wrong, you are right, you are perfect, I am nothing. Please continue to post valuable information so that I can learn from your perfection. One day I might be able to carry the scraper used to pick up the wax dripping from the guy who can almost hold a candle to your total knowledge of everything.

Alex

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 26 2003, 10:47 AM
False opinions are easy.... sometimes people post thngs just to get other people going. Sometimes people post things contrary to their personal beliefs just to see if they can get a rise out of the other side. It happens around here all the time...


Serge. verb. to post thing just to get other people going.

Example: Alex must have been serging yesterday because what he said could only make sense by assuming he actually doesn't believe it.

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 26 2003, 10:47 AM

JR, sorry, I was wrong, you are right, you are perfect, I am nothing. Please continue to post valuable information so that I can learn from your perfection. One day I might be able to carry the scraper used to pick up the wax dripping from the guy who can almost hold a candle to your total knowledge of everything.

Alex
i said:

often, you sound more like a talking doll that can pull its own string.

then you say:
One day I might be able to carry the scraper used to pick up the wax dripping from the guy who can almost hold a candle to your total knowledge of everything

which is the exact same thing you said the other day. either your "wittism a day" calendar had a misprinted page... or you just pulled your string again.
:(



Last edited by -= JR =- at Mar 26 2003, 11:28 AM

[RawAlex]

Colin: You are correct. Also known as "to confucy"...

JR: once again, your perfection has me in awe. You are all seeing and all knowing. You are able to view my witty reply book before I even copy the content from it to the page. One day I wish to be as powerful and all understanding as you. You truly are the man.

Alex

[-= JR =-]

Confucy. Noun

Confucied. Verb. A person who subtly or not so subtly antagonizes others under the self described guise of "harmless debate", "simple discussion" or "just telling the truth" only to have his/her arguments and remarks shot down due to their flawed logic and weak supporting evidence, who then feels victemized and ganged up on.

Note: Being confucied is usually followed by a hasty exit of the confucied individual, who usually then either blames others, or suddenly and arbitrarily announces that the entire conversation is just beneath him/her.

Sample: Alex is going to keep posting only to get confucied once again.

[RawAlex]

JR, you are so right again. I really wish I was as perfect as you. Your total understanding of everyone, all things, and your ability to read everyone's mind perfectly totally astounds me and leave me in awe.

I am amazed that you will come from your home of perfection and grace this board with your overwhelming presence. It is really a treat. I hope to learn from your posting and better understand the world. You see all. You know all. I can only grovel at your feet and hope to understand the information that you bring.

You are perfect, this is why your home of perfection is a glass house.

Alex

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 26 2003, 11:55 AM
JR, you are so right again. I really wish I was as perfect as you. Your total understanding of everyone, all things, and your ability to read everyone's mind perfectly totally astounds me and leave me in awe.

I am amazed that you will come from your home of perfection and grace this board with your overwhelming presence. It is really a treat. I hope to learn from your posting and better understand the world. You see all. You know all. I can only grovel at your feet and hope to understand the information that you bring.

You are perfect, this is why your home of perfection is a glass house.

Alex
*sigh* - was terribly easy to take complete control of your mind.

for those who missed it, here's a recap:

http://www.pleasurelabs.com/pics/control.gif

[RawAlex]

JR, it isn't complete control of my mind... it is just total awe that you are always correct, always perfect, and always have the correct answer. You are perfect, you are the man. You are a god amoungst gods. You could LEAD the Q continuum. You are always correct, there is no way to debate anything with you - no discussion is needed! You are correct, you are right, you are the best, you are the man.

Please don't try to hide your shyness by making silly little jokes. Accept the fact that you are perfect, and accept that I am admitting it. You are the best ever. You know it all. You are the man.

really.

Alex

[Vick]

Darlin’ take the duct tape from the shelf
Save me from my foolish, drunken self
Character assassinations
From my spirits and libations
It’s just the bottle talking now

As the intoxication flows
My sweet inebriation grows
When martinis pass my lips
All my quips get razor tips
It’s just the bottle talking now

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 26 2003, 01:35 PM
You are a god amoungst gods. You could LEAD the Q continuum. You are always correct, there is no way to debate anything with you - no discussion is needed! You are correct, you are right, you are the best, you are the man.

well... lets weigh our choices here, Trek Boy

http://www.pleasurelabs.com/pics/me1.gif

[RawAlex]

JR, I have totally admitted your superiority in all subjects, why do you continue to make fun of me? I admit you are a superior being, that you are all knowing, all seeing, the man as it were.

Are you not able to take praise? You are god. Live with it. You are perfect.

Alex

[Vick]

Think of days gone by, of coffee and of friends
Dream of future days when we will meet again
Deep dark conversations, stories that we’ll tell
’Cause when it gets dark — you look like anyone else

[Vick]

Do you wonder if this thread will ever die?


Truthfully I'm using it as Alex Bait B)

[slavdogg]

is this page 7 ? :matey:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by slavdogg@Apr 20 2003, 11:27 PM
is this page 7 ? :matey:
Nope.

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Mar 26 2003, 02:35 PM
JR, I have totally admitted your superiority in all subjects, why do you continue to make fun of me? I admit you are a superior being, that you are all knowing, all seeing, the man as it were.

Are you not able to take praise? You are god. Live with it. You are perfect.

Alex
Alex has no time to post.

Since i took over his brain, i make him pray to me 5 times a day and when he is not praying to my greatness, he is busy building his shrine to me or training. I am preparing him for a Jihad against TGP's... you will be reading about his great sacrifice soon.

http://www.pleasurelabs.com/pics/control.gif