Terrorists Run Amok, Violence Is Rampant

[sarettah]

Head Shops ????? (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030224-050113-1589r)

Funny as shit, unless you think about it for a minute, then you realize, it's just sad.....

[T - Bone]

"The DEA led "Operation Pipe Dreams," :lol: :lol:

There's definetly bigger fish to fry out there. Waste of resources? <_<

[JR]

Originally posted by sarettah@Feb 24 2003, 09:04 PM
Head Shops ????? (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030224-050113-1589r)

Funny as shit, unless you think about it for a minute, then you realize, it's just sad.....
sounds like a movie review for Forest Gump
:okthumb:

[Mike AI]

This is pathetic, Federal Authorities, especially the FBI should be looking for the people who are trying to murder us!!

T-Bone!! Where ya at?? Good to see you around!!!

Katie says hi!!

[JR]

also, i am failing to follow the logic here. how would you guys decide who gets to break the law, how and for how long?

[sarettah]

The Justice Department announced charges against 55 people Monday in a nationwide crackdown on sales of drug paraphernalia.

The crackdown included restraints put on 11 Web sites where such paraphernalia allegedly was sold.

"There are 11 dot-coms that are dot-gone," John Brown, acting chief of the Drug Enforcement Administration told reporters at the Justice Department.
************************************************** *********

Isn't he clever..........

[sarettah]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 25 2003, 12:26 AM
also, i am failing to follow the logic here. how would you guys decide who gets to break the law, how and for how long?

Hey JR,

Thats not the issue with me... If you do stuff illegal, especially out in the open, you are gonna get busted...

But to make taking out 11 web sites that sold paraphenalia seems like it should be a real low priority at the federal level...

Besides, many of the paraphenelia laws on the books are bullshit to begin with...

When I was living in North Carolina, in like 80 or 81, the paraphenelia law they passed made sandwich baggies illegal.... The current laws at all levels sometimes reflect that stupidity... If I buy a postage scale for weghing postage, I'm legal, if I buy it for weighing an illegal substance, I'm illegal.....

The apparatus should either be legal or illegal...

Of course, I don't know that a scale accurate to one one thousandth of a gram is needed for postage either....

The point is that none of the material should be illegal to begin with....

If someone uses it for an illegal purpose, then bust them for the crime they did... They use a bong for smoking dope, bust em for smoking dope.... Not because they own a pipe....

imho of course

[JR]

i am not arguing with you. but you made a suggestion that terrorism was more important and "they" have "better things to do" but this article is about an investigation and bust that was organized and coordinated by the DEA - not General Tommy Franks and a Navy Seal team.

either people broke the law or they didn't. its not really a philosophical issue. i may dissagree with many laws on the books but i also know that if i break them i go to jail. and i know that its not up to me to decide which laws i should follow and which i can break.

selling "free base cocaine kits" is hardly the same as possibly putting your kids peanut butter and jelly sandwich in an "illegal plastic baggy" to eat at lunch.

"Drug paraphernalia includes such items as miniature scales for weighing drugs, material to "cut" drugs to increase profits, roach clips and freebase cocaine kits, among others."

[sarettah]

Drug paraphernalia includes such items as miniature scales for weighing drugs, material to "cut" drugs to increase profits, roach clips and freebase cocaine kits, among others."
**************************************************

miniature scales == lab scales...legal for schools and labs and hobby scientists... can buy them at the local chemistry supply and they arent considered paraphanelia

material to cut drugs== milk sugar, legal substance

roach clips == wire clips, hemostats and various other legal items that can be bought at your local hardware store or tool store... Check Harbor Freight, great selection of hemos

Freebase cocaine kit==Butane jet lighter...totally legal, you can buy em at convenience stores and cooklery stores... Glass plate... legal... alcohol... legal...

All of the items that they make up to call paraphenelia only become paraophenelia when you add the intent to use it with some illegal substance.....

Once again, I maintain either the apparatus is legal or illegal....

Hell, the only head shop left in this area is inside of an adult book store.... Erotic City.... It has the book store, peep booths, a juice bar in back and a head shop where you can get pipes, scales, screens, inhalants, all sorts of stuff....

All the other places got busted out of existence a long time ago... That one doesn't get touched...lol... it's owned by a cop or a group of cops.... for real....

[T - Bone]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Feb 24 2003, 09:25 PM
T-Bone!! Where ya at?? Good to see you around!!!

Katie says hi!!
What's up dirty dawg???

Yeah KC has been bustin' my hump over here to get these damn TPS reports out on time... you know how it is.

I mostly just read and don't post much, but times are always changing.

Tell Katie the California Kid says Wasabi... B)

Hit me up on icq sometime 167795492

[JR]

Originally posted by sarettah@Feb 24 2003, 09:55 PM


All of the items that they make up to call paraphenelia only become paraophenelia when you add the intent to use it with some illegal substance.....

Once again, I maintain either the apparatus is legal or illegal....

Right, the Justice Department agrees with you. They feel they can prove intent. They feel they can prove its paraphenelia and prove its intended use. You are saying that since some items have a possible dual use, its ok to sell cocaine free base kits.

I am sure that the DEA is confident that they can prove that people dont go to "bongs-for-sale.com" to look for a triple beam scale for weighing baking soda for baking cookies for church bake sales.

if they cant prove their case in a court of law, then they are clearly wrong in what they are doing.




Last edited by JR at Feb 24 2003, 10:28 PM

[slavdogg]

Feds have been busting medical pot growers as well.


Anyone know which cities or stores were busted when Ashcroft got high on these Pipe Dreams ?

[PornoDoggy]

JR, just out of curiousity, have Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft et al. done anything wrong since they've been in office? I'm sure the feds think they can make the case - shit, I'd be very, very suprised if any of the people busted can afford to defend themselves against the wrath of Uncle - but even in the "war on drugs", don't you think this is a questionable allocation of resources?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 25 2003, 03:44 AM
Have Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft et al. done anything wrong since they've been in office?
What do you mean by "wrong"?

[JR]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 25 2003, 12:44 AM
JR, just out of curiousity, have Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft et al. done anything wrong since they've been in office? I'm sure the feds think they can make the case - shit, I'd be very, very suprised if any of the people busted can afford to defend themselves against the wrath of Uncle - but even in the "war on drugs", don't you think this is a questionable allocation of resources?
well, like Colin is probably suggesting, "wrong" is a subjective thing that would need to be clearly defined before answering yes or no.

however, is it "wrong" to go after people who are breaking the law? i dont think its ok to argue that its not - no matter how trivial.

do i think that its relevant that they can or cannot afford to defend themselves? no.

do i have information on the war on drugs that shows that resources are being wasted or that this announcement by the Justice Department somehow reflects the "fact" that there are more important things that ARE being neglected? i dont know. no one presented any information that proves anything. its just a conversation mocking an announcement that was made. no real info about it is being presented and no one is talking about anything specific.

do i know or you know that it was a questionable allocation of resources? i dont know. i dont know what resources were allocated exactly, what further busts are coming as a result of the investigation and what was neglected as a result of any focus (if there was any) on this particular case.

has John Ashcroft or George W Bush done anything wrong since they have been in office? i dont know. I am sure everyone can think of something they have done "wrong". I dont know how many more times i can repeat my opinion that Bush is a shitty leader. What more do you want?

[JR]

not that i am assuming you are interested a round of your favorite game of "conspiracy/counter conspiracy" , but i cannot find any other mention of this "bust" on the web that was "announced by the Justice Department".

why isnt that looked at as strange or questionable?

its pretty odd that no websites "that are being bounced to the DEA webpage" are mentioned as quoted in the article.

even a little strange that search strings like
"Operation Pipe Dreams"
"Operation Headhunter"
and any quotes mentioned on the page do not show up in search engines.

The DEA and Justice Department must have the shittiest press releases on the planet... or the appeal of conspiracy theories, when combined with paranoia and general lunacy have a way of propogating faster that Google.com can spider pages.

The arguement to me PD is something like getting pulled over for failure to use a turn signal and then pointing to a guy doing 75mph in a 35mph zone to say "see! why are you pulling me over?"

if the entire police force was ignoring the speeders to bust lesser offences and a clear pattern was present, then i can see that is a problem. but to point out one example and present it as a larger problem of the Government boogeyman coming to get us all is stretching reality a little (to me anyway)

considering the problem with all sorts of illegal online businesses and the massive and overwhelming problem it presents for law enforcement today from selling illegal medications to narcotics to scamming people for money... i am not suprised to see people being made an example out of wherever they can do it. i dont think its unreasonable to sell a "free base cocaine kit" and books on how to cut cocaine and speed as well as other obvious paraphenalia and not expect to get into trouble. you could not possible argue that these people were doing what they were doing with absolutely no hint or idea that they may possibly run into the law.



Last edited by JR at Feb 25 2003, 04:31 AM

[Torone]

(sigh) The idea that only one law can be enforced at a time...

[Almighty Colin]

Jr and I have very similar viewpoints regarding government and the role of government.

One creates a system, a framework for governance and measures the results with that framework in mind (The Constitution, a system of laws). If the system works one doesn't change much. Just keep the machine running. If the system doesn't work, change the system. At this point in the history of America, I would say it has been largely successful. A remarkable period of stability with, I would argue, increasing stability.

Though individuals sometimes make individual decisions that rub us the wrong way, everything does seem to work out in the end. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Sure, there are many decisions made by individuals in government that I may personally disagree with in principle - for philosophical reasons - but in the big scheme of things they don't matter much.

We have a system of laws. Laws should be enforced. There is not 100% priority given to enforcement of any individual law. One may say "why are police spending so much time
giving parking tickets when there are people out there getting mugged?" We don't catch all the criminals and law-breakers. It's important that they think they might get caught. We can't catch them all. We enforce laws when we can as we can.

I can't tell by the information in the story if I would even be upset on philosophical grounds. What is the law that was broken? What is the precedence? etc, etc. I don't know the whole story and I am not going to make up the rest. Like the story the other day of the Florida professor that is being accused of supporting terrorism. Is he? Is he not? How can any of us, with no more information that that, make any assumptions greater than that?

Why I don't worry about a John Ashcroft is that he is limited by his powers. The system of checks and balances is much greater than he. There is a process by which anyone in any
position in government can be removed from that office. There is a judicial process any case must go through.

I'm a libertarian in the sense that I think there shouldn't be laws regarding such things.
That's a selfish point of view though. A Utopian dream. One that probably wouldn't even be very effective in practice. I don't want people to tell me what I can and cannot do.
The system is bigger than I though and more important than my individual belief system, a belief system which has relevance more for me more than everyone else. I have to live in society. I cannot control it.

I cannot reconstruct society from the ground up. Here we are. Enforce the laws that are on the books as much as possible. Some of the enforcement will seem arbitrary but if the law is being enforced, I will not complain. One should know the dangers of one's transgressions.Most people do and they still complain when they are caught. Funny.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 25 2003, 07:09 AM
but i cannot find any other mention of this "bust" on the web that was "announced by the Justice Department".

why isnt that looked at as strange or questionable?

its pretty odd that no websites "that are being bounced to the DEA webpage" are mentioned as quoted in the article.

even a little strange that search strings like
"Operation Pipe Dreams"
"Operation Headhunter"
and any quotes mentioned on the page do not show up in search engines.


Try these:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...25/MN171982.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/02/25/MN171982.DTL)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Feb24.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62054-2003Feb24.html)

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/022403_NW...ia_%20BusT.html (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/022403_NW_Paraphernalia_%20BusT.html)

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,1132...6,00.html?tnews (http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,11326,00.html?tnews)

I especially like this quote:

"Reached Monday, Zahrieh's wife, who declined to give her name, said only that her husband sold items for tobacco use.

In Forestville, Sonoma County, agents arrested John Matthew Patrick, 38, who owns California Colorchangers, Inc. Its Web site, www.colorchangingglass. com, features an array of pipes and bongs. Its cover page states, "I agree to use the products offered herein for legal purposes only."

************************************************** *********

Sounds like the disclaimer for any free adult web site. So, if the bust stands, because as we discussed before, "INTENT" is what make paraphenlia something other than just a hunk of glass or a tobacco pipe, and the web operators made sure to state that if you are buying this stuff you must have legal "INTENT", then that does not bode well for the obcenity prosecutions when/if they start....

[JR]

Hahaha.. Tommy Chong was busted for making "glass art"
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME

a nice static banner from Cheechandchong.com
http://www.cheechandchong.com/banners/herbalsmokeshopfullbanner47.gif

and why dont you like this quote?

"A separate search of Chong's Pacific Palisades home uncovered a small amount of marijuana, according to a federal law-enforcement official"

its seems to me that people have a problem with the law and are misdirecting insecurity and paranoia to the federal government which is charged with enforcing that law now matter how vague, ambiguous or misguided anyone thinks it is.

The Controlled Substances Act
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/laws/cntrlsub/cntlsbd.htm

§ 863. Drug paraphernalia.

(a) In general
It is unlawful for any person -

(1) to sell or offer for sale drug paraphernalia;
(2) to use the mails or any other facility of interstate commerce to transport drug paraphernalia; or
(3) to import or export drug paraphernalia.
( B ) Penalties
Anyone convicted of an offense under subsection (a) of this section shall be imprisoned for not more than three years and fined under title 18.

( c ) Seizure and forfeiture
Any drug paraphernalia involved in any violation of subsection (a) of this section shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture upon the conviction of a person for such violation. Any such paraphernalia shall be delivered to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such paraphernalia destroyed or may authorize its use for law enforcement or educational purposes by Federal, State, or local authorities.

=========== DEFINITION ============

(d) ''Drug paraphernalia'' defined

The term ''drug paraphernalia'' means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter.

It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, (FOOTNOTE 1) cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, or amphetamines into the human body, such as - (FOOTNOTE 1) So in original. Probably should be ''marihuana,''.



Last edited by JR at Feb 25 2003, 07:54 AM

[sarettah]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 25 2003, 10:48 AM
and why dont you like this quote?

"A separate search of Chong's Pacific Palisades home uncovered a small amount of marijuana, according to a federal law-enforcement official"


I could care less about that quote because it has no bearing on me in the least.

The quote I listed has a bearing on me.... I have many free sites up that use a standard legal disclaimer, like many do...

If you are under 18 etc etc......

Whether the disclaimers on most Free sites are legal protection has never been decided...

If a bust of a site that clearly states that their products are for legal use only stands, then it does not bode well for us in the adult industry....

The paraphenelia shops and adult web sites both tread the legal line in many folks point of view.....

Most of us consider our sites to be totally legal... We avoid and abhor illegal content... We try to stay abreast of the legal requirements...

The paraphenelia sites are the same... By the letter of the law, it is not paraphenlia if it is sold for tobacco or other legal uses.... It is paraphenelia if it is sold for use with illegal substances......

If the paraphenelia site's disclaimer does not stand the legal test, then it highly doubtful that an adult site's disclaimer will withstand the legal test..

[PornoDoggy]

Torone:
(sigh) The idea that only one law can be enforced at a time... Kindly explain to me how you leap to the conclusion that I (or anyone else in this thread) suggested anything remotely like "only thing one law can be enforced at a time" when questioning the allocation of resources in this particular case.

Colin & JR:

Re the inappropriate use of the word "wrong" - hey, it was 3:00 in the morning. Poor choice of word. Overall, it was a poorly written post. My reaction is cynical - and would have been equally cynical had the operation and subsequent press release been made by Janet Reno. My reaction would be equally cynical if the local prosecutor and chief law enforcement officer made a press release regarding the arrest of 55 street-level crack dealers or meth dealers. Partly that's because I'm a cynical old bastard. Partly that's because I think it does nothing to solve the problem.

[Almighty Colin]

PD. re: "wrong". I was just wanted clarification on the question. ;-)

I always enjoy reading what you have to say so look forward to your point of view on the ongoing discussion.

[JR]

Originally posted by sarettah@Feb 25 2003, 08:02 AM

If a bust of a site that clearly states that their products are for legal use only stands, then it does not bode well for us in the adult industry....

The paraphenelia shops and adult web sites both tread the legal line in many folks point of view.....

Most of us consider our sites to be totally legal... We avoid and abhor illegal content... We try to stay abreast of the legal requirements...

The paraphenelia sites are the same... By the letter of the law, it is not paraphenlia if it is sold for tobacco or other legal uses.... It is paraphenelia if it is sold for use with illegal substances......

If the paraphenelia site's disclaimer does not stand the legal test, then it highly doubtful that an adult site's disclaimer will withstand the legal test..
but they are selling something that is illegal. thats the point of the arrest and the point of me posting the definition of "illegal paraphenlia"

my opinion is that you are making a poor arguement that its all fun and games to sell something illegal as long as you put a disclaimer saying "dont do anything illegal with it".

You are missing the bigger point. a "cocaine free-base" kit is CLEARLY illegal no matter how you personally define it and how you try to twist, stretch and distort the definitions as written in the Controlled Substances
Act.

the point i am making is that there is a reaction and emotion and stories that show ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE STORY - and people are making decisions based on poor information or no information and are very happy to start debating various government conspiracy theories without knowing or discussing the facts of the case.

so... if i were to base my opinions on the stories i should be worried because Tommy Chong claims he was "framed" as it was suggested on his site?... or be afraid of the US Government because he was unfairly targeted for selling his "Glass Art" ... Like no one knows who and what Tommy Chong is and its all just some big mistake.

I am not saying that people should not smoke dope or not be allowed to buy a pipe to smoke dope or anything like that. i am not saying that Ashcroft is coming to get you. i am saying that the law is fairly clear and no one has any real evidence, or facts or information about the case to even make an educated decision about motivations.

i dont put the simple, harmless and innocuous word like "underage" on a website because i know EXACTLY what can come of that. i have to expect that it is reasonable for law enforcement to assume that i am making a connection between porn and illegal content.

i have to expect that it is reasonable that if i am going to sell bongs, triple beam scales and various gadgets to hide the stash to kids - that i may be looking at some serious legal issues. I dont see how any person could say "hey kids, you can buy this bong, but you cant do anything illegal with it... *wink* *wink*" and feel that you are then legally safe to sell bongs to kids. The Controlled Substances Act clearly says that in such a situation, you are not legally safe. It says specifically, that you may go to prison and pay a heafty fine.

if John Ashcroft decides to attack porn.. so what? Are you legal right now? probably not. Are you legal to show hardcore images to surfers in MouseFart, Alabama? are you going to assume there is safety in numbers and its ok for you to break the law because everyone else does?

You have the choice to protect yourself. hire an attorney. move your servers to another country, transfer your company assets to a safer, more distant business structure, protect yourself, your business and everything you own. No law says you have to have servers in the US, or process in the US or sell anything to Americans.

The USA is not the center of the Universe... we just seem to think it is.

[JR]

Originally posted by sarettah@Feb 25 2003, 08:02 AM

If the paraphenelia site's disclaimer does not stand the legal test, then it highly doubtful that an adult site's disclaimer will withstand the legal test..
i guess i dont understand what the "disclaimer" is and what you feel the "test" is.

i dont think that you can sell "illegal paraphenlia"
"illegal paraphenlia" is defined in the Controlled Substances Act

i dont think you can change the definition of "illegal paraphenlia" by simply
asking or demanding that people use it in a different way because it is
already defined by law.

i can't sell you a switchblade on the Internet and be ok as long as i put a
disclaimer saying that "by clicking here, you agree that this switchblade
will be used as just a toothpick"... then later say "hey man... i was just
selling metal toothpicks - this is all just a Right Wing conspiracy to oppress
me"

[DrGuile]

Is a pipe legal or illegal?


In canada its rather simple, and a lot less open to interpretation if you ask me.

Pipes are legal, scales are legal, butane lighters are legal.


BUT, if you get caught with a pipe that has been used for smoking pot (i.e. has residues) you can be busted for possesion. or a spoon with crack leftovers in it.... etc....

dual use items are legal. Do something illegal with them, and you get in trouble.


also, on a personal notes, I dont think the legality of drug paraphernalia has anything to do with an increase or decrease in drug usage.



Last edited by DrGuile at Feb 25 2003, 01:14 PM

[sarettah]

I was going to answer, but it was getting really really long winded... and just seemed like beating the dead horse...

So, anyone else want to take up the cause...lol

For now I am done... tired, depressed, need to get some programming done.....



Ok, but now I see that there are additional posts.....

So I will answer the last JR post before I go to work....

JR Posted:
************************************************** **
i guess i dont understand what the "disclaimer" is and what you feel the "test" is.

i dont think that you can sell "illegal paraphenlia"
"illegal paraphenlia" is defined in the Controlled Substances Act
**********************************************

The controlled subatance act defines illegal paraphenelia as:

(d) ''Drug paraphernalia'' defined
The term ''drug paraphernalia'' means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, (FOOTNOTE 1) cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, or amphetamines into the human body, such as - (FOOTNOTE 1) So in original. Probably should be ''marihuana,''.

(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;
(2) water pipes;
(3) carburetion tubes and devices;
(4) smoking and carburetion masks;
(5) roach clips: meaning objects used to hold burning material, such as a marihuana cigarette, that has become too small or too short to be held in the hand;
(6) miniature spoons with level capacities of one-tenth cubic centimeter or less;
(7) chamber pipes;
(8) carburetor pipes;
(9) electric pipes;
(10) air-driven pipes;
(11) chillums;
(12) bongs;
(13) ice pipes or chillers;
(14) wired cigarette papers; or
(15) cocaine freebase kits.

(e) Matters considered in determination of what constitutes drug paraphernalia
In determining whether an item constitutes drug paraphernalia, in addition to all other logically relevant factors, the following may be considered:

(1) instructions, oral or written, provided with the item concerning its use;
(2) descriptive materials accompanying the item which explain or depict its use;
(3) national and local advertising concerning its use;
(4) the manner in which the item is displayed for sale;
(5) whether the owner, or anyone in control of the item, is a legitimate supplier of like or related items to the community, such as a licensed distributor or dealer of tobacco products;
(6) direct or circumstantial evidence of the ratio of sales of the item(s) to the total sales of the business enterprise;
(7) the existence and scope of legitimate uses of the item in the community; and
(8) expert testimony concerning its use.


(f) Exemptions
This section shall not apply to -

(1) any person authorized by local, State, or Federal law to manufacture, possess, or distribute such items; or
(2) any item that, in the normal lawful course of business, is imported, exported, transported, or sold through the mail or by any other means, and traditionally intended for use with tobacco products, including any pipe, paper, or accessory

************************************************** *

So, this act does not really spell out that an item is legal or illegal... in fact it states:

(e) Matters considered in determination of what constitutes drug paraphernalia
In determining whether an item constitutes drug paraphernalia, in addition to all other logically relevant factors, the following may be considered:


So, just because it is an item on their list does not make it paraphenelia...

and they further exempt:

(f) Exemptions
This section shall not apply to -

(1) any person authorized by local, State, or Federal law to manufacture, possess, or distribute such items; or
(2) any item that, in the normal lawful course of business, is imported, exported, transported, or sold through the mail or by any other means, and traditionally intended for use with tobacco products, including any pipe, paper, or accessory

So, if a tobacco shop sells a pipe, it is l;egal but If I sell a pipe, it may be considered illegal....

That brings intent into it... How you intend the product to be used or the intent of the buyer of the product...

Like Dr Guile posted after you... It should be how the product is USED that should define the crime, not the product itself.....

By the way, JR, you stated earlier....
***************************************
a "cocaine free-base" kit is CLEARLY illegal no matter how you personally define it and how you try to twist, stretch and distort the definitions as written in the Controlled Substances
Act.

****************************************
From my research earlier today, it would seem thatr afreebase cocaine kit would possibly containe...

Ether
Ammonia
A glass Plate or Mirror
A bottle

All of these are totally legal; products that when packaged together are called a freebase cocaine kit.... So, if I happen to have these products in my house, in different cabinets etc... They are legal. If I happen to put them all together in a box, they are illegal....... It is an attempt to discern my intent of possesing the products... That is basically thought police type stuff....



You also state:
************************************************** *******
i have to expect that it is reasonable that if i am going to sell bongs, triple beam scales and various gadgets to hide the stash to kids
************************************************** *******
Where does KIDS come into this.... other than an attempt to siderail the real argument as to whether the feds should be wasting their time and energy on going after totally legal products based upon a somewhat cloudy definition

You also state:
************************************************** ********
and are very happy to start debating various government conspiracy theories without knowing or discussing the facts of the case.
************************************************** ********

I never stated that there ever was a "government conspiracy" and I do not maintain that not... I do maintain a serious case of "government stupidity" exists....

As to the facts of the case, you know no more than I do.... I know the facts as presented by the media, whether right or wrong....

I will not stand there and say the government is right until proven wrong, as you seem to. They have proven themselves wrong too many times in the past for me to just outright swallow everything they say as fact.......

Now, I have to get back to work :)

[Almighty Colin]

Sarettah,

Is it your position that the law is being misinterpreted by the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Attorney General of the US, that the law is vague and will have to be fought in the courts, or something else? I'm not sure what your position is.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Colin@Feb 25 2003, 02:51 PM
Sarettah,

Is it your position that the law is being misinterpreted by the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Attorney General of the US, that the law is vague and will have to be fought in the courts, or something else? I'm not sure what your position is.
lolol Colin, I don't know if I know my position anymore either....

My reason for originally posting the article was to say that there are much better ways for the feds to be spending their time and money then to go after a few paraphenelia shops on the net.....

Whether they are legal or illegal, they are small fry...... If there is a problem with them, let the states, county, town level handle them.....

The Feds should be looking at the big picture...... Cocaine and Heroin coming into our country are bankrolling international criminal cartels and possibly terrorist organizations... This is where the time and effort should be put forth.....

Back a few years ago, under George I, he announced his "War on Drugs", selling it to the American people by announcing they were goingto shut down all the drugs coming from foreign countries...

They didn't make a dent in foreign exportation, they did however make a big showboat out of busting humboldt County, California Pot farmers....

This bust, and the way it was announced, looks like showboating to me... and I think there are more important things for the Feds to be spending my money on then busting Tommy Chong for selling pipes.....

Like I said, there are local levels of enforcement that could/should handle this....

The whole thing reminds me of the end of summer around here... Each summer, around the end of August, a whole bunch of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies get together and go up to Smithville Lake (Clay/Platte County Missouri) and cut down Pot plants.... They then announce that they have taken all this millions of dollars worth of Marijuana off of the streets...

Fact is that the pot grows naturally there because the entire area used to be Hemp plantations... What they cut down has no street value, nobody is going up there and harvesting it, nor is anybody out on the streets selling "smithville gold"...

It is a showboat operation which gets them their annual budget because the know nothings within the government buy off on it and it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling to help shut down the international trafficking of marijuana.....

My predictions on the paraphenalia bust are that the cases will be dropped or thrown out of court and will end up just being a waste of time and money.....