Great Article For Deep Thinkers...

[Mike AI]

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson022103.asp

This is a great article....

[sinfulone]

I gave it a shot but evidently I'm not capable of thinking that deep. I
reached the threshold of pain by the 4th paragraph.

[Opti]

Before we criticize President Bush for "diverting attention" away from the war against al Qaeda

Mike, I see this as the writer's key problem.. That is what too many people now believe Bush is doing.. I don't really see any evidence in Bush's actions or words for the analogy of a grand battle plan being laid out by one of history's great leaders.


A third, concomitant "Iraqi War" with additional enemies is a further effort to destroy an historical patron of terrorism and his cachés of deadly weapons that either have gone or will go to terrorists. Saddam's defeat will end the possibility that his oil-fueled supply of deadly weapons will fall into the hands of al Qaeda and its epigones. His end will isolate and cut off al Qaeda operatives in Kurdistan; it will rid Baghdad of enemies like Abu Abbas (and the ghost of Abu Nidal) as well as various al Qaeda visitors; it will stop bonuses for the suicide-killers of Hamas and Hezbollah (who embrace the same modus operandi and similar religious extremism as the 9/11 killers); and it will send a powerful message to states like Iran and Saudi Arabia that subsidizing terrorists who killed 3,000 Americans is a very dangerous thing to do.

I have to say this paaragraph does sound pretty damn convincing as a reason to attack Iraq though <_< maybe if Bush could sell his pitch that well we would even have the French wanting to fight :zoinks:


Ok.. I know I push the anti Bush thing a bit... I hope you know I am far from anti american... in fact I am proud Australia has been loyal and savy enough to stand behind the USA from day one... it has probably turned out to be a tactical fuckup for our government now.. but I reckon our Prime Minister knew what he was doing! If more "ALLIES" had followed suit then Saddam would be out by now... A full on UN force would be in Iraq and really ending all arms developement and a new governement installed peacfully... I could even imagine that leading to a day America would be cheered in many parts of the middle East.. sounds a bit like a fairy story I guess.


This guy has a pretty vision of what might be a nice explanation for Bush's cowboy antics..... We can all write fairy stories.


I think these people are closer to the mark...


********* copy of email ***********

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[Mike AI]

Opti, I am optimistic that Bush is indeed visioning this as a great epic stuggle.... I however agree with you that some of his rhetoric though nice for sound bites for American TV is not serving him well in foreign policy. I think Powell should be flying more and meeting with leaders IN PERSON in their countries - which is a sign of respect.

There are many things Bush could be doing differently, however I see them as more a small part of form and function, the BIG picture, the real issue is winning the war on terrorism - which is going to be going on for our lifetime... Bush understands this, and is doing what he thinks he has to, to win it.

Though he could be going about things in a smoother, more diplomatic ( less cowboy) way, he is still going to get the job done. He swore the protect the people of the United States, and I think he will do that.... even if it means pissing off some of our historic allies, and of course the french.

The war on terrorism/Islamic Fundemtnalism has been going on since the 80s... mostly as a low intensity conflict, but since 9-11 it has heated up, and should be this countries #1 priority. We cannot follow the path of the appeasers... that lesson continues to haunt us ( WWII, Clinton with N. Korea, Iraq, etc....)

This is a Epic world wide battle, one we must win!

[PornoDoggy]

Oh, my ... I'm going to have to read that one again at least once.

First, seeing the term "liberal democracy" used in a positive light in the National Review is quite amusing. I'll also need to read it again to pick up what I missed - sometimes to much reading on the web can turn your brain to mush - but that's not the reason either.

No ... I didn't read a single word in that article questioning the sexual orientation of anyone to the left of Atilla the Hun. There was absolutely nothing in that article that equated liberalism with treason. There was absolutely nothing in that article that questioned the manliness of the French or Germans for disagreeing with American policy. Even found "Muslims from the Middle East are not per se the enemy, but rather those renegade Muslims who use the cover of Islam to rally support for their self-serving politics", which is a lot different from "let's just go in and smoke all their assses."

Quite refreshing, actually. Agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it, made me think some, and did it all without resorting to the politics of ignorance so often associated with the right.

[Mike AI]

PD Liberal on the world stage is different then liberal in a democracy. Liberal on world stage means allowing peope to vote, women equal to men, and not treated like cattle. Freedom of expression, movement, worship, and everything else our Founding Fathers left behind for us.

Liberal democracy comes from Europe, and of course before that ancient Greece... it goes hand in hand with free market economics, and capitalism... it is the winning tide, and will eventually sweep over the rest of the world, including the middle east.

Once liberal democracies are established, everything on the inside that is deabted - like in the US between Republicans and Democrates are merely tiny issues and details. The is not much of a difference between a Rep and a Dem, when compairing them to a member of the Bat'he Party in Iraq, or the Taliban regime.

[Opti]

How the hell can I disagree with that! :(

You never want to argue with me!!! plllf.. ;-))


That was a good article, I do like the vision a LOT... and I can see it is possible.

I do trust Powell.. were you dissapointed with his recent effort in the UN? He had to stand up with what appeared pretty lame evidence. That probably hurt the cause more than anything recently imho. Would have been better to not talk about evidence at all.. rather push the points this person does in the article. The enemy is the one that benefits from the subject being on evidence of weapons now.

Not sure if you have seen the scale of anti war protest developing down here... but it's big, or at least loud. The PM, John Howard, went on record about a week ago saying the anti war protestors should be ashamed of themselves for providing encouragement and comfort to Saddam Hussein.. it was a pretty unpopular thing to say.. I agree with him... but we can't stop them.. the only way to do it is with leaders like Australia's PM that will put their balls on the line and do the right thing when it has to done.. I believe Clinton and possibly Gore would have MADE the French and Germans stay in line from day one. Not only becasue they appear to be better politicians than bush but becasue they had their hands on the strings and knew which ones to pull.. Coming in right before 9/11 would take a great president to cope with.. we just don't seem to even have a good one.

[PornoDoggy]

PD Liberal on the world stage is different then liberal in a democracy. Liberal on world stage means allowing peope to vote, women equal to men, and not treated like cattle. Freedom of expression, movement, worship, and everything else our Founding Fathers left behind for us ... in the US between Republicans and Democrates are merely tiny issues and details. The is not much of a difference between a Rep and a Dem, when compairing them to a member of the Bat'he Party in Iraq, or the Taliban regime.

Mike - I know that. I just wish more American conservatives acted like they knew that. I grew up during the cold war - and at the height of it anyone who floated the idea that liberalism was equal to treason was recognized as a card carrying member of the lunatic fringe. Much of today's MAINSTREAM right regards that as fact without question.

[Mike AI]

PD, Opti this is crazy Sunday - we are all agreeing!! :D

[Ironhorse]

That was a good read. I think some 50 years from now we'll be looking at this whole conflict (terrorists, iraq, saudi) from a very different perspective once the 'actors' have been fully uncovered or the victors set the stage.

[Mutt]

A third, concomitant "Iraqi War" with additional enemies is a further effort to destroy an historical patron of terrorism and his cachés of deadly weapons that either have gone or will go to terrorists. Saddam's defeat will end the possibility that his oil-fueled supply of deadly weapons will fall into the hands of al Qaeda and its epigones. His end will isolate and cut off al Qaeda operatives in Kurdistan; it will rid Baghdad of enemies like Abu Abbas (and the ghost of Abu Nidal) as well as various al Qaeda visitors; it will stop bonuses for the suicide-killers of Hamas and Hezbollah (who embrace the same modus operandi and similar religious extremism as the 9/11 killers); and it will send a powerful message to states like Iran and Saudi Arabia that subsidizing terrorists who killed 3,000 Americans is a very dangerous thing to do.

:okthumb: This in a nutshell is why I am 100% behind Bush. This is what I think needs to be done. I'm not going to be distracted by the 1,001 arguments the anti-Bush crowd is working laboriously to come up with, some of them have valid points and concerns but it doesn't change what I think is the right thing to do which is in that quote above. You can't make an omellete without breaking some eggs.

[sarettah]

and it will send a powerful message to states like Iran and Saudi Arabia that subsidizing terrorists who killed 3,000 Americans is a very dangerous thing to do.
************************************************** ******

Then why not just attack Iran and Saudi Arabia.....

Saddam Hussein made be an evil bad guy, but his government is a NONSECULAR evil bad gut dictatorship rather than a MUSLIM evil bad guy dictatorship like Iran and Sudi Arabia.....

When it gets right down to it, Hussein has every reason in the world to be as nervous about muslim fundamentalism as anyone else in the world does..

imho (of course)

[slavdogg]

very good article Mike

:okthumb:

[JR]

i think it shows an amazing lack of leadership ability when the idea of deposing Saddam Hussein is a tough sell, after all this time and all these years and all that he has done.

when you step back and look at the chronology of the existence of Saddam Hussein, the attrocities he has committed, his constant quest for bigger and better weapons, his use of those weapons, his defience of the UN and the misery and death he has brought to his own people... its a very sad testimony to the notion of peace, the weakness of the international community and the innefectiveness of the UN, that the world can say "lets give the inspections more time some more time" or "we are categorically against war".

the Pope himself recently said that "war would be a defeat for all of humanity"

What about peace? How is it that millions suffering, dying and living in complete terror at the hand of one man, and the inability of humanity to effectively agree, reach common ground to help these people is not? How is that more noble?

Saddam won the war. I wonder why people dont see it like that? He was never defeated. He was empowered. He was never weakened at home. His grip on power was strengthened. He stood up to the West and walked away, both defiant and victorious. He lost some hardware and we called it "an amazingly swift and successful defeat after one of the largest military mobilizations since WWll". While the world was patting themselves on the back proudly exclaiming "we liberated Kuwait"... they could have also been claiming "we continue to enslave the Iraqi people"

12 years later, things are worse. The world is against war, but somehow some of the highest mortality rates in the world of children under 5 for the last 12 years is ok. Its ok that these children can die while muliti-billion dollar Presidential Palaces now totalling 45 have been built since the Gulf War.

Peace, often causes more death, destruction and suffering than war - yet somehow, it is an idea that is more preferable. its more civil. its socially acceptable.

People forget that peace kills too. the intention of war is to remove approximately 100 people from power and rebuild a country and set it on a democratic course. Continued "Peace" with Saddam Hussein is putting the world at risk. It is killing people today. It has been killing people for 12 years. it is killing children, mothers, the young and old already. each day without war, kills more. Each day we "give the inspectors more time" - more people suffer as a bloodthirsty dictator continues to maneuver as he has for the last 12 years of defying the inspectors.

Giving the inspectors more time to play hide and seek with a murderous madman - is the same as passionately demanding more suffering and more death of the Iraqi people. Its those same people, who in the minds of peace activists become real only if a war happens. They only begin to exist, when war happens. To people who want peace, the Iraqi people somehow only become victems if war happens. To proponents of peace today, those same people are nothing more than a statistic... and its quite ok to ignore their plight, their misery, suffering and death today, as long as you promise not to remove the man who makes it happen.

[Mike AI]

Jr I think you have a good perspective on it....

Either Saddam Lost the war, and won the peace.

or

Or lost the battles, but won the war.

[slavdogg]

Here is an interesting article on Germany and Iraq

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=31190 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31190)

[photogregg]

Not being a deep thinker and could care less about politics...but my thoughts are reflected in this song:

>>>* To the tune of "If you're happy and you know it,
>>clap your hands"
>>
>>
>>If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
>>If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
>>If the terrorists are frisky, Pakistan is looking
>>shifty,
>>North Korea is too risky, Bomb Iraq.
>>
>>
>>If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
>>If we think someone has dissed us, bomb Iraq.
>>So to hell with the inspections, Let's look tough for
>>the elections, Close your mind and take directions,
>>Bomb Iraq.
>>
>>It's "pre-emptive non-aggression", bomb Iraq.
>>Let's prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
>>They've got weapons we can't see, And that's good
>>enough for me 'Cos it's
>>all the proof I need to Bomb Iraq.
>>
>>If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
>>If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
>>If you think Saddam's gone mad, With the weapons that
>>he had, (And he tried
>>to kill your dad), Bomb Iraq.
>>
>>If your corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
>>If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
>>If your politics are sleazy, And hiding that ain't
>>easy, And your
>>manhood's getting queasy, Bomb Iraq.
>>
>>Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
>>For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
>>Disagree? We'll call it treason, Let's make war not
>>love this season, Even if we have no reason, Bomb
>>Iraq.

[The Other Steve]

Good one Photogregg - :D

[JR]

oh cool... sing-a-long time!

:bjump: :bdance: :bdance: :bjump:

in the spirit of peace at all costs and showing unity and support for killers, murderers, rogue dictators and any other world leader or terrorist, who stands up and says "fuck you, i want you all dead" worldwide... lets continue this happy moment of peace and love... and keep singing!

* To the tune of "If you're happy and you know it,
clap your hands"


If your a just a pussy, support Saddam.
If you love a killer, support Saddam.
To show your love affair for terror,
To show the world you really "care"
To show the world the threats not there,
Support Saddam.

Since the UN doesn't care, support Saddam
who'll miss a few dead babies here and there, support Saddam
If your blinded by compassion,
And feel that terror is in fashion
You wont miss the weapons that he's stashin'
Support Saddam

If you dont care about Anthrax, support Saddam
If your not afraid of V-X Gas, support Saddam
You just sit and watch him kill
Iraqi suffering gives you a thrill
And since you want more blood to spill
Support Saddam

If you want Saddam to win, here's how to foil,
Tell the world its really about the oil
Because they might be just too dumb
To see you support the worlds worst scum
Or notice your just a bum
Support Saddam

Since North Koreas is a threat, support Saddam
Since Pakistan is a mess, support Saddam
You see, its really not too fair
To dictactors everywhere
So please show them all you "care"
Support Saddam

Since your afraid to fight, support Saddam
Since you dont care about Human rights, support Saddam
So, show the world you care
Claim its just a Republican scare
Claim the war is just not fair
Support Saddam!



Last edited by JR at Feb 24 2003, 03:45 AM

[Monk]

"Great Article For Deep Thinkers..."


... Jack Handey gives that article three thumbs up!!!


:okthumb: :wankit: :okthumb:

[PornoDoggy]

I'm not sure who would worry me more ... someone singing the JR song or someone singing the photogregg song.

[The Other Steve]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 24 2003, 04:11 PM
I'm not sure who would worry me more ... someone singing the JR song or someone singing the photogregg song.
Poor effort from JR - not even a hint of rhyme - 1 out of 10 is the best I could give it.

[JR]

Originally posted by The Other Steve+Feb 24 2003, 05:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Other Steve @ Feb 24 2003, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PornoDoggy@Feb 24 2003, 04:11 PM
I'm not sure who would worry me more ... someone singing the JR song or someone singing the photogregg song.
Poor effort from JR - not even a hint of rhyme - 1 out of 10 is the best I could give it.[/b][/quote]
hehe... i dont even remember the "first" Steve. now i am being critcized by the "other" Steve

when can we get the opinion of "Steve_Number_3"?

:blink:

[Vick]

Originally posted by JR@Feb 24 2003, 05:59 AM
Since you dont care about Human rights
What's all this talk I hear about human rights ....???
What about human lefts? :wacko:
For that much, what about dolphin lefts? Or Monkey Lefts, or monkeys that lean left?

[cj]

LMFAO!!!
both of those songs were funny

jr, if only you used your talents for something productive ..... :D :P

[Almighty Colin]

Steve is not a number. He is a free man.

[Torone]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 23 2003, 03:31 PM
PD Liberal on the world stage is different then liberal in a democracy. Liberal on world stage means allowing peope to vote, women equal to men, and not treated like cattle. Freedom of expression, movement, worship, and everything else our Founding Fathers left behind for us ... in the US between Republicans and Democrates are merely tiny issues and details. The is not much of a difference between a Rep and a Dem, when compairing them to a member of the Bat'he Party in Iraq, or the Taliban regime.

Mike - I know that. I just wish more American conservatives acted like they knew that. I grew up during the cold war - and at the height of it anyone who floated the idea that liberalism was equal to treason was recognized as a card carrying member of the lunatic fringe. Much of today's MAINSTREAM right regards that as fact without question.
Pd,
You seem not to realize that your Liberal Democrats, although they bill themselves as the 'intellectual elite' in their own minds, are basically emotion-oriented. Look at some of the things they and their sycophants say ("agreeance?"); and you will see that they should be called the emotional dregs.

Why did I respond this way? I'm damned sick and tired of having the intelligence of myself and other Conservatives impugned by people who have absolutely no grasp of facts; but insist on defining everything in emotional terms. People who believe that economics is a zero-sum game, who play off groups of Americans against each other, breed an entire race of voters for their party, and even try to include people from other countries to increase their power. People who ignore the Constitution when it suits them and complain that their guy won the popular vote and should be President in defiance of the methods set up by that Constitution (the Electoral College). People who try to stack the courts with Liberal Activist judges so that they don't have to worry about voters. People who pushed Roe vs Wade through the courts, thereby guaranteeing the murder of millions of infants; but insist on destroying the very fabric of our society 'for the children' (in the case of this war, Iraqi children).

Yet, when a Lib is asked a direct question, the response is almost always the same..."But first, let me say this."; and the qwuestion somehow never gets answered.

Yeah, tell me about the ignorant right. Then explain some of what the super-intelligent left says and does. :moon:



Last edited by Torone at Feb 25 2003, 09:03 AM

[originalheather]

I'd have to say that I'm about 75% conservative, but this is where we part ways:

People who pushed Roe vs Wade through the courts

Until you have a uterus, don't cast the first stone.

Ok, Dianna...we're pissing, happy? :P