Heart Transplan Girls Parents Refuse To Allow [Archive]

LadyLaw

02-22-2003, 07:02 PM

Dear Sword:

Hello! This is a quote from the article you posted:

"Dr. Karen Frush, the hospital's medical director of children's services, has there was no sure way to tell when the brain damage occurred. But Mack Mahoney, a family friend and Jesica's chief benefactor, said doctors told the family it was due to the time Jesica was connected to life support.

"Life support ruins kidneys, it ruins brains, it ruins all the organs of the body," he said.

The Santillan family declined to donate any organs from Jesica's body, Puff said. "

************************************************** ****

Although it seems an unreasonable decision by the parents to deny other organ donors the same transplant opportunity Jesica had, it sounds to me like there was little chance of viable organs to donate anyway.

I actually don't blame them (in a way) for wanting to put Jesica's body into her grave without any more surgical invasions...especially if there was not much to donate anyway.

That girl AND her parents went through a lot....two heart-lung transplants (one of them unnecessary and due to medical negligence) and now her death.

It is obvious they played every card, moved heaven and earth to try to save their daughter....it would have been a lovely gesture for them to allow any and all viable parts to be harvested, but I really don't blame them for saying no now...they are grief-stricken, it was all a disaster, and there isn't much to donate anyway....

All this IMHO.

Hooper

02-22-2003, 07:08 PM

I dont think it gets much more hypocritical than that.

Sure i could say something really nasty and racist right now about the parallel between illegal immigrants just taking taking taking but not giving back and the parents just taking taking taking free medical treatment, expecting others to donated their bodies, but refusing to give back... but i wont :rolleyes:

They lost a daughter. That is a terrible tragedy, but they are now taking somebody else's daughter or son by refusing to donate.

Fuck em & kick em out of the country.

Last edited by Hooper at Feb 22 2003, 07:19 PM

Winetalk.com

02-22-2003, 07:12 PM

Hooper, I am with you!

Winetalk.com

02-22-2003, 07:12 PM

Hooper, and I stand firm on my convictions, even if it means I won't get laid tonite!
;-)))

Hooper

02-22-2003, 07:12 PM

LL.. i think if it was a matter of the organs not being viable it would be a very different story.

But the parents said "NO"... whether the organs were viable or not they showed their true colors.

Hooper

02-22-2003, 07:13 PM

hahahaha.. you're in deep now serge ;-)

Winetalk.com

02-22-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Hooper@Feb 22 2003, 07:21 PM
hahahaha.. you're in deep now serge ;-)
Hoop,
\go get her,
she threatens to put MY organs on Ebay now!
;-)))

LadyLaw

02-22-2003, 07:17 PM

Serge darling:

Think what you want, but if YOUR organ is viable, rest assured....you'll get laid tonight.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

Winetalk.com

02-22-2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by LadyLaw@Feb 22 2003, 07:25 PM
Serge darling:

Think what you want, but if YOUR organ is viable, rest assured....you'll get laid tonight.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D
Babee,
don't get hooked on your own supply,
the pic of me posted on the net
WAS A FAKE!!!!!!!!
;-))))

LadyLaw

02-22-2003, 07:28 PM

Serge sweetheart:

What does "fake photo" have to do with VIABLE? You can't escape your fate tonight...

:inlove: :inlove: :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:

PornoDoggy

02-22-2003, 07:38 PM

Well, golly gee wilikers, Batman, how can these people not be convinced of the value of organ donations? After all the wonderful things it's done for their daughter, they sure are being ingrates for not donating what Duke didn't kill off.

I mean, this whole scenario is a right wing wet dream - you got your illegal immigrant, your greedy trial lawyers - man, if Bill Clinton, Tom Daschle and Ted Kennedy issue a statement of sympathy for the family it will all be there.

gigi

02-22-2003, 07:43 PM

Sorry LL, but I have to agree with the boys on this one....

I think it's disguisting that the parents weren't open....even DEMANDING donation of her viable organs......it's sick.

Although, I'm a bit biased when it comes to organ donation.....my sister was the recipient of a kidney and pancreas aprox. 5 years ago.

Winetalk.com

02-22-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by LadyLaw@Feb 22 2003, 07:36 PM
Serge sweetheart:

What does "fake photo" have to do with VIABLE? You can't escape your fate tonight...

:inlove: :inlove: :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:
sorry, but BOYS and GiGi say you are WRONG!
;-))))

Mike AI

02-22-2003, 07:48 PM

This kind of thing just turns my stomach.... the story keeps getting worse and worse....

:cryin:

PornoDoggy

02-22-2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 22 2003, 07:51 PM
I think it's disguisting that the parents weren't open....even DEMANDING donation of her viable organs......it's sick.

Although, I'm a bit biased when it comes to organ donation.....my sister was the recipient of a kidney and pancreas aprox. 5 years ago.
I am truly glad things worked out for your sister. My last several years in St. Louis I got to know several people who were themselves on a heart/lung transplant list, or had family on one. Watching what they went through was heartwrenching, to say the least.

But really ... imagine the pain of a family leaving on the edge of fear for years, thinking they've finally gotten what they've prayed for, only to have this whole clusterfuck happen to them. If I were a greiving parent of this girl, somebody from Duke - or that I thought might be from Duke - coming near me to ask that question would result in a few more organs being available for distribution, assuming the lucky spokesperson had previously made the necessary arrangements. It's really easy - particularly if you can dismiss them as mere illegal aliens, and not grieving parents - to sit here and speculate in a rational frame of mind about what they should do.

Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 22 2003, 08:03 PM

LadyLaw

02-22-2003, 08:06 PM

Serge:

The question of to donate or not to donate what is left of Jesica has NOTHING to do with the viability of your own ORGAN....good try though.

Gigi...hey mama! I understand your point, I really do. To hear they said NO FEELS wrong...I feel that too. My friend from Oregon had a pancreas/kidney transplant and it gave him a new life...I've been listed as an organ donar for 20+ years...I believe in organ donation.

Politics of the thing aside...as sick as Jesica was, as long as she was on life support, the LAST thing some other dying person needs is a screwed up transplant from this girl which could well fail, requiring another transplant, another round of misery for some other family.

Peaches

02-22-2003, 08:10 PM

She would have died if she hadn't gotten the transplant at all.
And since the transplant wasn't the right blood type, then she wouldn't have gotten that FIRST transplant either, would she? She would probably STILL be on a wait list, so she COULD had already died by now.
And once she GOT a transplant, there's no guarantee that she would have survived.
And even if she DID survive the transplant, there's no guarantee that she wouldn't have walked out of the hospital and gotten hit by a bus. :zoinks:

That's still no reason why her parents couldn't donated what could have been harvested - at the minimum, skin is very useful for burn patients.

LadyLaw

02-22-2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 22 2003, 08:01 PM
[QUOTE
But really ... imagine the pain of a family leaving on the edge of fear for years, thinking they've finally gotten what they've prayed for, only to have this whole clusterfuck happen to them. If I were a greiving parent of this girl, somebody from Duke - or that I thought might be from Duke - coming near me to ask that question would result in a few more organs being available for distribution, assuming the lucky spokesperson had previously made the necessary arrangements. It's really easy - particularly if you can dismiss them as mere illegal aliens, and not grieving parents - to sit here and speculate in a rational frame of mind about what they should do.
Pornodoggy, this was my point exactly...thank you.

HoneyBlond

02-23-2003, 01:41 AM

As Hooper most eloquently stated

They lost a daughter. That is a terrible tragedy, but they are now taking somebody else's daughter or son by refusing to donate.

Fuck em & kick em out of the country.

How could anyone be an transplant recipient without considering the 'dynamics' of an organ donor?
*scratches head*

gigi

02-23-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by LadyLaw+Feb 22 2003, 08:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LadyLaw @ Feb 22 2003, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--PornoDoggy@Feb 22 2003, 08:01 PM
near me to ask that question would result in a few more organs being available for distribution, assuming the lucky spokesperson had previously made the necessary arrangements. It's really easy - particularly if you can dismiss them as mere illegal aliens, and not grieving parents - to sit here and speculate in a rational frame of mind about what they should do.[/b]
Pornodoggy, this was my point exactly...thank you.[/b]
Yeah, I understand the parents anger at the hospital....but I honestly cannot understand taking out that anger on another family waiting for life.

LL, I believe if her organs weren't 'good', they wouldn't have asked them to donate in the first place?? Her brain damage was due to the first transplant that was the wrong blood type....she never did recover from that obviously.....but I would think if it created problems for her other organs they wouldn't have asked for them??

As Peaches said, even skin....eyes, and other things would be a blessing for someone out there.

The only reason I can think of that I 'might' accept, would be wanting all the organs in place for the autopsy so I could sue the pants off the hospital....'cause we all know this is going to happen....it won't even go to court....Duke will pay. I saw one of the Duke Doc's on TV apologizing profusely....they don't have a leg to stand on if it went to court.

Of course, this is still 'morally wrong'....but that's what I'd 'feel' like doing if I were them.

A very sad story indeed....

Hooper

02-23-2003, 01:51 AM

LL, I believe if her organs weren't 'good', they wouldn't have asked them to donate in the first place?

Maybe the parents were confused and thought they were pairing the organs with a side of farvaaahhh beans and a glass of chianti :yowsa:

Sword

02-23-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Hooper@Feb 22 2003, 07:16 PM
They lost a daughter. That is a terrible tragedy, but they are now taking somebody else's daughter or son by refusing to donate.

Fuck em & kick em out of the country.
I agree 100% :okthumb:

PornoDoggy

02-23-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by gigi@Feb 23 2003, 01:52 AM

Yeah, I understand the parents anger at the hospital....but I honestly cannot understand taking out that anger on another family waiting for life.

LL, I believe if her organs weren't 'good', they wouldn't have asked them to donate in the first place?? Her brain damage was due to the first transplant that was the wrong blood type....she never did recover from that obviously.....but I would think if it created problems for her other organs they wouldn't have asked for them??

As Peaches said, even skin....eyes, and other things would be a blessing for someone out there.

The only reason I can think of that I 'might' accept, would be wanting all the organs in place for the autopsy so I could sue the pants off the hospital....'cause we all know this is going to happen....it won't even go to court....Duke will pay. I saw one of the Duke Doc's on TV apologizing profusely....they don't have a leg to stand on if it went to court.

Of course, this is still 'morally wrong'....but that's what I'd 'feel' like doing if I were them.

A very sad story indeed....
You know, I suppose if we can speculate that the parents are going to be greedy bastards and sue the kind, benevolent, lovable but bumbling doctors at Duke, there just might - maybe - sorta kinda - be a little "damage control" going on here, too. I mean, really ... two days after this thing goes terribly wrong there are stories all over the media about the illegal immigrant status? Not only are they stealing every dishwashing job in the country, now they've come here to steal our red-white-and-blue organs from gawd-fearin 'mericans! How come nobody was screaming about that before the fact? And why the need for releasing the information about the parent's refusal to donate organs, anyway? You would think that would be private medical information, wouldn't you?

I still think it's pretty presumtuous of those of us sitting here speculating on what they should do to criticize people who've just been through the emotional roller coaster these people have been through. I can tell you that I'd like to I'd be benevolent about it - but more likely I would be as irrational as hell, and in jail over one dead fucking doctor.

Of course, I realize they are just illegals, and they only reason they came here was to get the big payoff - they're probably just overjoyed with their windfall, right?

slavdogg

02-23-2003, 06:43 AM

one can get eye trasnplet ??
i want one of those, my eyes are fucked up

Winetalk.com

02-23-2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by slavdogg@Feb 23 2003, 06:51 AM
one can get eye trasnplet ??
i want one of those, my eyes are fucked up
Slav, are they THAT bad?

http://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/cantseeshit.jpg

Opti

02-23-2003, 08:18 AM

I imagine there will need to be lots of postmortem evidence required in the investigation of exactly why the girl died when she did.

I also imagine the hospital would require a signed form that said I consent or I decline organ donation... not why... They could have declined on the hospital's advice for all we know from that article.

As a parent of an 18 year old daughter I feel sick for them. Desperate times call for desperate measures when it comes to family. I really am not sure what they did.... but even if they had killed people, lied and stolen to get to America specifically to leach of the health system trying to save their daughter... then they still :rokk: imho

Too many parents don't give a fuck in this world.

Peaches

02-23-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 23 2003, 04:37 AM
now they've come here to steal our red-white-and-blue organs from gawd-fearin 'mericans!

Well, PD - you tell me - they came here illegally and received a set of organs that didn't go to an American or legal immigrant. How else would YOU word that? :zoinks:

How come nobody was screaming about that before the fact?

Because no one KNEW about it! People HAVE been complaining about illegal immigrants coming here and getting free medical care - feel free to thumb through the previous posts :awinky:

And why the need for releasing the information about the parent's refusal to donate organs, anyway? You would think that would be private medical information, wouldn't you?

Because it's pretty darned ironic, dontcha think? (apologies to Alanis)

I still think it's pretty presumtuous of those of us sitting here speculating on what they should do to criticize people who've just been through the emotional roller coaster these people have been through. I can tell you that I'd like to I'd be benevolent about it - but more likely I would be as irrational as hell, and in jail over one dead fucking doctor.

This isn't a child that all of sudden was killed by a doctor. It isn't a child that was killed in an auto accident. It isn't a child that was killed by a knife wielding rapist. This child has been sick for years. This child has been dying for years. This child would have been dead years ago were it not for the "fucking doctor" that you rationalize you would be in jail over. American doctors have been keeping this child alive for THREE YEARS, but she's still been a very sick child. People aren't candidates for heart/lung transplant if they're not literally deathly ill - this was NOT a "surprise" death. As callous and as sad as it is, this was an expected death - it was merely prolonged. If anything, the parents have the American medical profession to thank for giving them three extra years with their daughter.

Of course, I realize they are just illegals, and they only reason they came here was to get the big payoff - they're probably just overjoyed with their windfall, right?

Nope - the reason they came here was to prolong the life of their daughter (and look - I'm not even mentioning that they wanted to do it for free...well, OK, I am :awinky: ). Which they did. They prolonged it for three years. That's probably three years more than they would have spent with their daughter had they stayed in Mexico. Yet we're the mean, hateful, ugly Americans that allowed them to use our facilities, and dare to be appalled that they didn't have the decency to allow THEIR daughters organs donated when one of our own more than likely donated theirs to her. :angry:

Sword

02-23-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 23 2003, 03:37 AM
I mean, really ... two days after this thing goes terribly wrong there are stories all over the media about the illegal immigrant status? Not only are they stealing every dishwashing job in the country, now they've come here to steal our red-white-and-blue organs from gawd-fearin 'mericans! How come nobody was screaming about that before the fact?
Because that story won't sell as many newspapers as the heart-tugging story of a poor girl who desperately needs a second shot at life.

Although several news outfits actually were mentioning the issue of her illegal status.

sarah_webinc

02-23-2003, 12:19 PM

i don't care if they are imigrants or whatnot ...would still think it is blindly spiteful regardless of who it is. My sister was gravely ill as an infant. Luckily she didn't neen a transplant but I know for sure my parent's would have given hers if she had died. Even if the blood types were the same she still may have died. Then what? Still stick your nose up on the same system that gave your kid a chance.

gigi

02-23-2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by slavdogg@Feb 23 2003, 06:51 AM
one can get eye trasnplet ??
i want one of those, my eyes are fucked up
LOL, yup....you can get new eyes if you need them. I'm sure there are certain circumstances and prerequisites that must be fulfilled before you can be put on the list....but yeah....you'd be surprised at what they can do these days. B)

I can't really touch on the illegal immigrant status of the family. I'm in Canada and I guess I don't understand the issues/problems surrounding this subject.

However, I'm surprised you say it's 'free'?? Several years ago, my parents drove my kids down to Disneyland. On the drive down, they both came down with Chicken Pox. (good timing for me....hehe...grandma had to care for them *innocent grin*).....my mom took them to emerg, where they were diagnosed and given the required medication etc. My parents paid the hospital costs out of their own pockets, and when they returned, my BC Medical reimbursed us for the costs. This was NOT free by any means for us.

Regardless, aside from the issue of the family being illegal immigrants....I still cannot reconcile their choice not to donate.

I still think it's pretty presumtuous of those of us sitting here speculating on what they should do to criticize people who've just been through the emotional roller coaster these people have been through. I can tell you that I'd like to I'd be benevolent about it - but more likely I would be as irrational as hell, and in jail over one dead fucking doctor.

I think you've hit it here. This didn't happen to us. Therefore we can sit here with a clear mind and make reasonable decisions. I can only guess as to what the family is thinking/feeling. HOWEVER, I STILL can't reconcile their choice not to donate...I just can't...no matter WHAT they are feeling at the time. Unless we are given further information about their decision, I just can't force myself to feel empathetic towards them.

kath

02-23-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by sarah_webinc@Feb 23 2003, 09:27 AM
i don't care if they are imigrants or whatnot ...would still think it is blindly spiteful regardless of who it is. My sister was gravely ill as an infant. Luckily she didn't neen a transplant but I know for sure my parent's would have given hers if she had died. Even if the blood types were the same she still may have died. Then what? Still stick your nose up on the same system that gave your kid a chance.
Totally agreed Sarah. 100%.

If anyone should understand the desperate NEED for organ donation it should be those parents. And I agree with the argument that they wouldn't have asked for the donation if the organs weren't viable at that point. Think of how many other lives could have been saved or prolonged because of those donations.

When life gives you lemons - you need to make lemonade. This was that family's - and Jessica's - chance to make a miracle out of tragedy.

I agree - we have a problem with illegals in this country. Hell, I live in MexiCalifornia :yowsa: but that really isn't the point here. The point is that as parents - as human beings - as people who depended upon the donor system for their own child....they should have agreed to the donation.

Just my .02 cents...

PornoDoggy

02-23-2003, 09:48 PM

I still say an awful lot of the post fiasco publicity, up to and including the release of the information regarding the parents refusal to authorize making organs available for transplanting, has just as much to do with diverting attention from the massive fuckup that the Duke people allowed to happen. But hey ... that's just my opinion.

Plays real well to certain audiences, after all ... and there is much less talk about how something so basic could get fucked up.

Peaches

02-23-2003, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Feb 23 2003, 10:56 PM
Plays real well to certain audiences, after all ... and there is much less talk about how something so basic could get fucked up.
It's not as basic as you might think. Apparently, her name was NOT on the receipient list for these particular organs because she wasn't the correct blood type. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/...hingorgans.html (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20030223-1033-matchingorgans.html)

However, I'm sure there will be tons and tons of investigations regarding the entire fiasco and we'll know everything we ever wanted to know, and more, before it's all over :awinky:

*KK*

02-23-2003, 11:32 PM

Personally I don't see why people make such a hullabaloo out of donating about. Once you're gone, the body no longer needs those parts. I can't think of any modern religion -- tho I'm sure someone can remind me -- that requires burial with all parts intact in order to pass through to the next level.

It should be such a simple matter, think about it. If everyone who could donate did donate, we wouldn't have 3 year waits and near impossible matches on some blood types.

I'm a donor, have been since I was 16. And if something, God forbid, ever happened to my son, I would have no qualms about donating his organs if it would save another childs life.

Hooper

02-24-2003, 12:57 AM

has just as much to do with diverting attention from the massive fuckup that the Duke people allowed to happen

do you really think that in any way affects the outcome of whatever lawsuit will happen against duke? swaying public opinion isnt really all that important at this point. it's convincing the judge/jury that matters.

and bottom line is that regardless of *WHY* these facts were released to the public, who released them, and what agenda there may or may not be... bottom line is that these are FACTS that are being released.. not oprahs bookclub reviews of the transplant family behavior.

let me guess, you make your policy and business decisions based on what you *hope* will happen? or what you *ideally* think should have happened?

jeez.

fuckin liberal :rolleyes:

Last edited by Hooper at Feb 24 2003, 01:08 AM

PornoDoggy

02-24-2003, 11:51 AM

First of all, I am NOT defending the families decision not to release the organs for possible use by others. I've been a donor as long as I can remember, and my kids and significant other know it. I wish they had. All I'm trying to do is suggest that someone with a certain amount of compassion for all this family has been through might reach the conclusion that the decision they reached was understandable even if it was regretable. Now, if that makes me a pansy-ass do-gooder liberal in anyone's mind, far fucking out ... been called worse things by better people.

But Mr. Hooper, sir ... I'm not exactly sure how I make my business decisions plays into any discussion of this whole clusterfuck, or how you reached the rather silly and incorrect conclusion as to how I make them, but it sounds really good in a sound-bite sort of way, so as my daughter used to say, "what-ever."

Now, if you can stiffle the Pavlovian responses (immigrant - UGH!!! trial lawer!!! UGH!!!) for just a moment, you might realize that I NEVER SAID A PR CAMPAIGN BY DUKE WOULD AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF A TRIAL, now did I? Swaying public opinion is in fact very, very important at this time because nothing's going to go before a judge and jury for years, and I'd be suprised if it ever did. If it does go to court, remember, all them greedy trial lawyers are filling the courts with wasteful, frivilous lawsuits - did I get the line right? - so it will take years.

Last time I checked, corporations and institutions were very concerned about their reputations. They have whole staffs of PR weenies hanging around getting paid for making sure the entity looks good, and standing by to do damage control when something happens that could tarnish that image. An awful lot of conversations - in the media and at the watercooler - have been diverted from "how the fuck could this happen?" to "fucking illegals" and "what shallow, ungrateful fucking illegals." And no, I am not suggesting any massive conspiracy against the family ... just standard business practices.

BTW, I wouldn't know a thing about the books on the Oprah list and wouldn't buy one if I found out it was there (another cute soundbite, though - Rush, maybe?).

Have a nice day.