What The Heck Is This?

[RawAlex]

http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup/

No idea - got it as spam...sort of looks like a nice way to get someone bank account info, if you ask me...

Alex

[Mike AI]

If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

the small print

I certify that I am 18 years of age or over, and am permitted by law to view adult materials and I understand that the contents of this site are of an explicit sexual nature.
I certify that my membership to this site will be used for my own personal enjoyment and that i will not under any condition, share or transfer my membership.

I certify that I will submit my evaluation of this site within 5 days of membership.

I certify that I will not use any proprietary copyrighted materials obtained from these websites for any commercial or personal endeavor.

I will not hold Liberty Focus Group, Cyber Global, WTSBank, or any of their affiliates, related companies or employees liable in the case of my password being discovered and used by a minor to access content which may be restricted to them in their jurisdiction.

Member's username and password must not be distributed to others. This will result in immediate suspension of service. Cyber Global, under law, must hold the member liable for unauthorized breach of membership.

Cyber Global has the right to refuse membership to any individual and has the right to cancel a membership.

Members are responsible for providing all necessary equipment to gain access to the websites.

For competitions involving pictures or stories from members, the rights to these are deemed to be assigned to Cyber Global once the email has been posted.

All information transmitted via email is deemed public domain material.

Memberships are not transferable.

As a member of Cyber Global's websites, you authorize Cyber Global, its affiliates, and any associations Cyber Global becomes involved with the right to use your valid email address for any marketing programs or purposes whatsoever. In the event that you cancel your membership, Cyber Global, its affiliates, and any associates still reserve the right to use your email address for any marketing, selling or any other purpose whatsoever.

Without limitation Cyber Global does not offer any warranty to any aspect of the service be it a service provided directly by Cyber Global or a 3rd party source.

I am fully authorized to use the above checking account.

I understand that a draft will be sent through my checking account and appear on my bank statement like any other check. I certify that that sufficient funds are available today and that if they are not, I will be charged a NSF charge by the bank.

I understand that the five day membership is an evaluation period. If I decide not to terminate my evaluation membeship before the end of the five day period, I will be activated as a member at a fee of ninety nine dollars for a three-month period.

I understand that in the case of activation, I am purchasing a login from WTSBank, and that my membership will renew every three months until cancelled. Memberships must be cancelled before the renewal date.

I read and agree to the above terms and I agree to the TERMS and CONDITIONS of Membership.

[Peaches]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 18 2003, 09:01 PM
http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup/

No idea - got it as spam...sort of looks like a nice way to get someone bank account info, if you ask me...

Alex
Hehehehe - if it's what I think it is, it's legit, and I'm remembering a certain conversation from almost a year ago and other events are falling into place :awinky:

[mojobill]

I understand that the five day membership is an evaluation period. If I decide not to terminate my evaluation membeship before the end of the five day period, I will be activated as a member at a fee of ninety nine dollars for a three-month period.


Guess it could be worth $10 for a chance at $100! LOL

Hell.. if 1 in ten 'forget' to 'terminated my evaluation membership' they make money!

[Mike AI]

Fatbaby, I think you hit the mark.

This is a way to get people to hopefully forget their "memberships"....

Wonder how many people would actually give out their check info out....

[RawAlex]

Yeah, it's a niucely disguised scam, I guess... stupid things people will do for $10.

I forwarded my copy and the URL to the FTC... let them enjoy it.

Alex

[slavdogg]

looks ok to be
that site has been around for a long time and promoted by PornProfit on their exit consols.
My guess has always been that its their site


I call it creative marketing

[Mike AI]

I really need to work on being more "creative"!!

[slavdogg]

Alex, i dont think you know what a SCAM is

you're almost as bad as Lee Noga

[RawAlex]

Slav, let's see...

something that says "free, we even give you $10" in big letters and then small prints ya to death?

Something that askes for confidential information on a non-https page?

Something that doesn't have a care about "reviews", just cares about taking you for net $89.99 when you think you are getting something for free?

I would love to see how well that site would convert if the FREE was changed to "$10 off" on a $100 price tag. That is the easiest way to spot a scam - they are not telling you up front about how they are going to fuck you in the end.

Alex

[slavdogg]

>>> something that says "free, we even give you $10" in big letters and then small prints ya to death?

where do you see that ?

>>> Something that askes for confidential information on a non-https page?

How does that make it a scam?? Are you calling WTS scammers ??


>>> Something that doesn't have a care about "reviews", just cares about taking you for net $89.99 when you think you are getting something for free?

You just assumed they dont care about reviews. Give me some facts !

[Hooper]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/free.htm

I imagine the ftc will be ignoring you alex. it's one thing to dislike somebody's tactics, another to report them to governmental authorities in hopes that they will get "busted". I think less of your "creativity" than i do of theirs.

If there is fine print and the surfer fails to read it then they deserve what they get.

Bottom line?
Surfer wants porn.
Surfer gives their bank account number.
Surfer gets charged.

Surfer doeesnt follow their rules and they get the shaft.. surfer follows their rules and they make 10 bucks.

It seems to me that this is the same kind of whining i see over and over again from sponsee's who dont read the fine print, break the rules and then dont get paid accordingly.

I'm ranting now, probably because i *DO* read the fine print.

[sarettah]

From the top of the page:
"Offer ends midnite February 18th - ONLY HOURS LEFT!"

From the bottom of the page:
"It's fast, it's easy, and it's fun - this offer ends November 6th"


lololol... They need to pay more attention to detail...

as far as misleading, etc... Yes, the front page is a bit misleading... BUT.. They do fully show their terms right there on the sign up page... Most of the big boys that got nailed in the past by the FTC were hiding their terms, making the user hunt through hell and high water to locate them....

Hell, their terms are clearer than the car ads I see on TV and print ADS, where they promise a 0% or 1% interest rate but they show across the bottom of the screen or in little tiny microscopic priunt that to get the low interest you have to be one of the first 2 to apply and you have to have perfect credit and you must have been born in New York in July and your name has to start with the letter B.. All others will get 22%....

So, it may look scammy, but it would probably pass scrutiny....

just imho

[Mike AI]

Hooper you are right about small print....

I used to not be a small print kind of guy, Lawschool changed that for me...... ESPECIALLY online you better read all the SMALL print....

I wonder if the guys from WTS will let us know how it is working... I am ready to build a few sites! :D

[RawAlex]

Slav, the "reviews" are a requirement of membership, which I find interesting... "I certify that I will submit my evaluation of this site within 5 days of membership. " If you fail to do this, are you in breach of the agreement? If a member doesn't submit a review, does that negate the rest of the terms? Or is submitting a review a requirement of cancellation, otherwise you get charged, even if you ask to cancel without comment?

from the FAQ page:

Question 7: If I enjoy these sites and wish to continue my membership, it is possible to do so??
Answer 7: Absolutely. However, this option will ONLY be available after the evaluation period is over.

This isn't an option - you get charged UNLESS you do something, not the other way around. The main site, the entire sales page, the entire FAQ section says nothing about ever being charged - all it says is free.

The part that really bothers me is that the price is spelled out in words, not in numbers, which is a good trick to hide the price (so people who skim the terms can't easily spot the price). It is also the LAST items on the page, not near the top.

I don't comment on WTSbank's processes, but this page:

http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup...signup.php?ip=& (http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup/signup.php?ip=&)

is not on a secure server, yet it asks for confidential information - not a good thing. No way to be certain that the information is actually being processed by anyone reputable, could just be going to a foreign fraud mill...

I suspect there is a bunch of money to be made here, but I am also sure there are alot of pissed off clients who things they are getting a 5 day trial and $10, and instead end up with a three month membership for eight nine dollars and ninety nine cents out of their account instead.

Good scam - hope it makes someone some money.

Alex

[Hooper]

If there is any one thing I have learned in this business, it's this:

The guys who grab the surfers by the ankles and shake em upside down til all the money falls out of their pockets are the ones who have already retired fat and happy (or at least they could if they wanted to).

However much everybody (including me at times) might bag on these guys... I've seen pictures of Rob Gould's house, FM's race cars, RB's jet set lifestyle, JoeE's house and Ferraris... i could go on and on and on and on, but i dont remember the last time I thought "gosh i wish i'd been nicer to the surfer a few years ago"

They say in philosophy that in order for an argument to be valid, it must withstand the logical conclusion of it's argument.. or something like that.. basically that if you say money is bad you'd better be willing to forego all that comes of money, even indirectly.

That being said... I say you either have to take the high road, abide by it 100% or dont. The high road? Yeah, call the surfer on the telephone personally every time he's about to rebilled and ask him if he's certain this is a transaction he would like to make and whether he's really certain that porn is what he'd like to spend his money on.

Unless you do that or only use sponsors who do that.. then you're using the fine print.. at least at some level.

If you do do that, then i would call you a priest not a salesman/marketer.

[originalheather]

Talk about misleading small print....how many of you have read that page tonight yet are saying that the full membership is 89.95???

It's 99.95! I just read the page and only saw the amount because Alex pointed out that it was spelled out.

What the hell qualifies as a scam to you guys if this doesn't?

I don't see that this is WTS bank, even though they're named there, I just put in a bunch of fake info to see where it went and it didn't appear to go through their server...it just says wts.pl..how do you know it's them? Not that I'm a fan of theirs at ALL...just wondering.



Last edited by originalheather at Feb 18 2003, 09:35 PM

[Hooper]

$99 for 3 months?

isnt that actually cheaper than the average pay site?

[RawAlex]

Heather, after the $10 credit (for being so nice as to hand over all your personal info and your email address for a lifetime of spam) it is net 89 - but the price is only spelled out, and only at the bottom of the terms, and NOWHERE ELSE on the entire site.

Y'see, I figured it out: You pay $10 per trial to the surfer instead of $35 to a webmaster - and you charge a 3 month minimum and you ONLY use checks (harder to charge back) and you use the $10 deposit as a "qualifier" to make sure the account is good... I suspect this is about a 1 in 2 conversion from trial to paid... with a 3 month retention right off the bat. Nice numbers, compared to what most sites are seeing these days.

Hooper, "fine print" should clarify the points of an offer, not to be the only place that spells out the single most important parts of the offer. The fact that you are paying for something is IMPORTANT, not something that should be disguised and hidden at the bottom of the page, in small letters, written out so that the numbers don't show... that is just a blatant attempt to fuck people over.

More power to them, if they can pull it off.

Alex

[*KK*]

So did anyone actually sign up? Since they are relying on checking accounts you surely should be able to get an acct if you have your head on right...

and see just what they are up to?

If not, then who really knows what might be going on. It could be any one of a number of things, including a site that only the stupid would join but is properly disclosed.

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by Hooper@Feb 19 2003, 12:47 AM
$99 for 3 months?

isnt that actually cheaper than the average pay site?
low end average - but with a 3 month retention time! Most sites don't retain like that anymore.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 19 2003, 12:49 AM
If not, then who really knows what might be going on. It could be any one of a number of things, including a site that only the stupid would join but is properly disclosed.
Non-secure form on a throw away domain that has no relation to the sites? Sorry, I ain't brave enough to enter my personal bank account info into that sort of a form.

Alex

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by RawAlex+Feb 19 2003, 12:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RawAlex @ Feb 19 2003, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Feb 19 2003, 12:49 AM
If not, then who really knows what might be going on. It could be any one of a number of things, including a site that only the stupid would join but is properly disclosed.
Non-secure form on a throw away domain that has no relation to the sites? Sorry, I ain't brave enough to enter my personal bank account info into that sort of a form.

Alex[/b][/quote]
ALex, this is the actual site
http://www.libertyfocusgroup.com

[RawAlex]

Slav, the signup form I see is:

http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup...signup.php?ip=& (http://bluesandstech.com/libertyfocusgroup/signup.php?ip=&)

not secure, on a domain that has nothing to with the sites... not on a billing company, nothing... just a form on a disposible spam domain...

that doesn't inspire confidence.

Alex

[*KK*]

Originally posted by RawAlex+Feb 18 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RawAlex @ Feb 18 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Feb 19 2003, 12:49 AM
If not, then who really knows what might be going on. It could be any one of a number of things, including a site that only the stupid would join but is properly disclosed.
Non-secure form on a throw away domain that has no relation to the sites? Sorry, I ain't brave enough to enter my personal bank account info into that sort of a form.

Alex[/b][/quote]
It's checking Alex. Think.

[originalheather]

I used an old closed account and did get an approval..but didn't go in. If I'd gone it, that would have been fraud, right? :D

I didn't see anything that led me to believe it was actually WTS processing..and anyway, if anyone else wants to try it, icq me.

[Opti]

Brad Shaw posted a thread about this... on XBiz I think.. about six months ago..

Speaking of reading the small print...... the surfer is actually signed up for THREE three month recuring memberships at $99 bucks each..

[RawAlex]

KK, I won't purposely enter false information... goes against my nature :-)

Alex

[Opti]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Feb 19 2003, 06:24 PM
KK, I won't purposely enter false information... goes against my nature :-)

Alex

I don't doubt you are serious about that too Alex!! :agrin:

[originalheather]

Ok, Alex is even pickier than I am..I'll enter false info but won't use the site lol.

[*KK*]

Hmmm, you claim these people are scammers - and I am not saying they aren't -- but then you won't take the steps necessary to beat them at their own game? LOL.

[RawAlex]

Opti, just me, I guess - although I use to sell cars, go figure!

You are right, the terms are NOT clear, you could be buying one $99 (oops, sorry, a ninty nine dollar) membership that accesses all three sites, or you could be buying three seperate $99 (dang, did it again, ninety nine dollar) memberships... net of, oh, say, $275 or so after the $10 (the only number on the site with a $ near it) and processing fees.

Man, that has to be cheaper than paying a webmaster $35 a signup...

Alex

[RawAlex]

Originally posted by *KK*@Feb 19 2003, 01:29 AM
Hmmm, you claim these people are scammers - and I am not saying they aren't -- but then you won't take the steps necessary to beat them at their own game? LOL.
Kimmy, the are possibly committing fraud - I just don't have it in me to commit fraud to prove it (and it will prove nothing, really).

Alex

[originalheather]

What I REALLY want to know is if WTS is actually in on this.

[Opti]

Originally posted by RawAlex+Feb 19 2003, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RawAlex @ Feb 19 2003, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--*KK*@Feb 19 2003, 01:29 AM
Hmmm, you claim these people are scammers - and I am not saying they aren't -- but then you won't take the steps necessary to beat them at their own game? LOL.
Kimmy, the are possibly committing fraud - I just don't have it in me to commit fraud to prove it (and it will prove nothing, really).

Alex[/b][/quote]

I like the model.. don't think it's fraud... No chargeback probs.. and I bet the $10 going into the account establishes a relationship so the surfer has a lot more trouble going to their bank and saying I never did this as I don't know these people".

just that 300bucks per surfer is pushing it... obviously not pushing it so hard as to have been shut down yet though :-)

[originalheather]

Let's all spend a little more time splitting hairs over this...is it legally fraud? Perhaps not.

Is it unethical as hell? Deny that.

Amazing how many people in this industry subscribe to the "fuck anyone for money as long as I don't get thrown in jail" book of ethics.

[slavdogg]

>>> Is it unethical as hell?

Show me the book of ethics :D


>>> Amazing how many people in this industry subscribe to the "fuck anyone for money as long as I don't get thrown in jail" book of ethics.

worked for Bill Gates :D



Last edited by slavdogg at Feb 19 2003, 02:33 AM

[RawAlex]

Heather, one thing I have learned hanging around Oprano is that the line is drawn only when you get arrested - otherwise, do anything until they serve you with the summons or put on the silver bracelettes.

other than that, everything is fair game.

Alex

[Hooper]

worked for Bill Gates

actually pretty much every excessively wealthy person/country/company has subscribed to that very ethic in some way.

The Kennedy's, Andrew Carnegie, Rockefeller, Gates... they might be esteemed names today, but every one of them build their wealth by either breaking laws directly (e.g. the kennedy's were bootleggers) or by completely fucking other people out of everything (e.g. carnegie created the company town and gates made his bucks by stealing somebody elses idea)... I'm sure there are 9000 other good examples.

I'm sure their families and heirs weep at night when they read ethics books.

I'm not saying ethical people arent *right*... i'm saying they arent *rich*.



Last edited by Hooper at Feb 19 2003, 02:19 AM

[originalheather]

You'd have to recognize ethical behavior if you fell over it, I guess, before you can even read the book.

So if Bill Gates did it, it's ok? He's the original sleazebag. I guess you were just pointing out a personal role model?

[slavdogg]

Originally posted by originalheather@Feb 19 2003, 02:21 AM
I guess you were just pointing out a personal role model?
has nothing to do with role models,
i'm dont like Bill Gates or his products and use as little Microsoft made stuff as i can.

[*KK*]

Personally I say a little thank you to Brother Bill and his minions every day... without his 'distribution methods' for the PC, we'd probably all be doing something else to pay the bills.

[Mike AI]

Alex I think it is a little unfair to paint everyone at Oprano with the same brush. Many people think this is a little shady. But as someone pointed out before, people tend to have the ethics they can afford. In tough times, and I will say THESE are tough times, people are going to push boundaries. When these people push the boundaries, it creates pressure on others to push as well to keep up. Doing business the way it was done 4 years ago is crazy, hell even 2 years ago. It is a pattern that is continueing to develop....

What can be done about it? It is tough.... when people's income drops they will do whatever they can to fix it. I see these things more as a signal of the tough times in the industry then with people who want to be scammers or mislead people....

The funny things is, this is is a deal you see all the time in mainstream....

[RawAlex]

Mike, yes, you often see this sort of deal in the mainstream, but the combination of steps taken, the selling approach, this diguising of the costs (even though they are spelled ou in the terms), the lack of a clear indication of "1 membership at 99 or one membership per site for a total of 297", the lack of a secure submit page, all things that tell me there is something here that isn't 100% on the up and up... someone is playing the angles.

Mike, what I like about oprano is the lack of morals - that they only real line in the sand for a majority of the regular attendees of this board is the line drawn by your future cell mate and the fact that he ran out of sex lube years ago. It is interesting to watch, to learn... just a GFY is the home of certain types, Oprano is the home of it's own type... and it's entertaining to say the least.

Each and every person who called this a scam has also considered how to do something similar since they started reading this thread... even as we disagree to the exact method, we all try to learn from everything we see.

:wnw:

Alex

[Mike AI]

Mike, what I like about oprano is the lack of morals

Morals and ethics are not the same thing, and should not be used interchangably.

Moral issues are things like is porn bad? Ethical issues are, is misleading customers with free trials wrong?

:D

[Sword]

I'll bet the Insufficient Funds returns on that $99 charge has to be pretty high. I am constantly shocked by the amount of my check transactions that come back Insufficient Funds for little $19 charges and the like. I mean who doesn't keep $19 in their checking account?? Apparently joe sixpack the porn surfer doesn't. I even get a lot of insufficient funds returns for $4.95 trials. How screwed up is that?

So I can only imagine how high the insufficient funds returns would be on $99 transactions. Has to be pretty high. If it was $99 x 3 as someone suggested, it'd be off the chart, but I doubt that is the case... they'd almost have to be nuts to be charging $99 x 3 imho.

[Nickatilynx]

But as someone pointed out before, people tend to have the ethics they can afford. In tough times, and I will say THESE are tough times, people are going to push boundaries.

So what you are saying Mike ,is I have to be eviller as nthe non-evil are catching up?

Excellent ! :)

[RawAlex]

Mike, ethics are a result of morals... someone without morals probably don't have ethics either...

:-)

Nick, you got to work twice as hard to be evil now tht you have lost your right hand man... (or was he left handed?)

Alex

[Hooper]

Nick. We received a phone call for you. Not sure how they got our phone number ;-)

http://personal.clickfeel.com/funshit/spam.wav

[Almighty Colin]

Ethics. Don't cheat because you think it is wrong.

Morals. Don't cheat because everyone else thinks it is wrong.

[RawAlex]

ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.

mor·al Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character

No morals, you have no ethics.

Alex

[georgeTHR]

It's about time, we as a community, start to recognize what surfers TRULY want and are looking for. I think its great!

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Hooper@Feb 19 2003, 11:14 AM
Nick. We received a phone call for you. Not sure how they got our phone number ;-)

http://personal.clickfeel.com/funshit/spam.wav
Punks! Useless in this society! ROFL!!!

Alex, a lack of morals does not guarantee a lack of ethics. It is entirely possible for a serial killer, for instance, to have a complete lack of morals, indeed even to lack an understanding of morals, but to have an excellent work ethic.

[Nickatilynx]

Alex,

LOL. I don't have to try to be evil...I just AM! :)

That wav,Hoop, was like a minor one for us LOL.

To me ethics and morals are the same.They both get in the way of making money!!! :)

[T-Rav]

This is a very interesting discussion.

I have tried to look at this from a surfer's prospective as well as a webmaster/business perspective.

From the surfer's point of view: It obviously looks too good to be true. If something is too good to be true, it probably is. So, if you're still brave enough to give it a try...read the fucking small print. If you are satisfied that it is worth it after reading the small print then sign up and you get what you pay for (or got paid for, as the case may be).

From the webmaster/business point of view: As Hooper so eloquently put it, "grab the surfers by the ankles and shake em upside down til all the money falls out..." If this tactic (the site in question) gets more signups/money then so be it. I don't see anything inherently wrong with this "marketing strategy". I don't feel responsible for people that don't understand what they are getting into. It is the surfer's responsibility to read the fine print and make an educated decision to move forward.

This is the "Gym Membership" mentality. I got burned the other day by my soon to be ex-wife. She signed up for some fucking tanning salon that dinged my fucking checking account for $15.97/month. I have quite a few auto-withdrawals out of my checking account, all of which I know where they came from. This shows up one day. I had to track down who it was to, then send a certified letter to the corporate office, and then after receipt, a 30 day cancellation was in place. Holy shit...I got fucked right in the ass...but it was my wife's fault...not the tanning salon...in my opinion.

Everyone out there that is crying fraud, scam, or other such nonsense...is the "gym membership" mentality also a scam? hell yeah, but you have to take personal responsibility when you knowlingly walk into a "scam". Is it fraud? Nah, I don't think so...

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Sword@Feb 19 2003, 12:39 PM
I am constantly shocked by the amount of my check transactions that come back Insufficient Funds for little $19 charges and the like. I mean who doesn't keep $19 in their checking account??
lololol... Spent a year in South Dakota one afternoon at a little tiny out of the way tittie bar... So cool, they took checks..... Next month I got a call from my bank asking about the 250 bounced checks for one dollar each :nyanya:

As for morals:

What's moral is what feels good after having done....

What's immoral is what feels bad after having done.....

:rokk: