Content God 2

[Dianna Vesta]

I'm looking for a a very good & easy content manager that will sort and display video, audio, text, pics- etc. Something easy to use and will release the content when I ask it to.

I've looked at Content God's demo but there are things I don't really understand since I've always build my sites by hand.

Anyone that has used Content God, please tell me what you think of it and if you found it easy to use. Did it come with other docs that were simple to understand? Were you able to use it right away?

Please post or email info@nichecartel.com

Thanks
Dianna

[Que]

I know this is a shameless plug, but it may help you out :)

have you looked at ConMan? A-ConMan.Com (http://www.a-conman.com/)
it might be worth your time to take a look at what it can do for you :)

[Mike AI]

Dianna I read somewhere about content god being buggy, having a few problems, and not the best support. I think it was on GFY.

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by Que@Jan 19 2003, 03:25 PM
I know this is a shameless plug, but it may help you out :)

have you looked at ConMan? A-ConMan.Com (http://www.a-conman.com/)
it might be worth your time to take a look at what it can do for you :)
We at DarkDollars love Conman. There've been a few glitches here and there when we first started using them, but the support has been fantastic and the newer modules really complete the software nicely. I wouldn't have given a testimonial on the product if it didn't work well.

My only knock is the documentation could be better, but we've already discussed this in Vegas and that's actually a small gripe.

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by Que@Jan 19 2003, 03:25 PM
I know this is a shameless plug, but it may help you out :)

have you looked at ConMan? A-ConMan.Com (http://www.a-conman.com/)
it might be worth your time to take a look at what it can do for you :)
I did look at Conman and liked it. I agree that there wasn't enough info about it. It's also pricy, which isn't a big deal.

The perk with Content God is I can buy the lite version, try all it's features and then upgrade if I like it.

I'm looking for as much automation as possible and a CMS that isn't limited to pictures and video.

Seems like more programmers would have released something, right?

DV

[PornoDoggy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 19 2003, 03:32 PM
Dianna I read somewhere about content god being buggy, having a few problems, and not the best support. I think it was on GFY.
Oh, golly gee ... now there's a usually reliable source of info that both Phil Donahue and Rush Limbaugh would agree on NOT using. :D

Buggy? I doubt any more than any other massive script responding to the setup of individual servers. Support issues I haven't heard about. They've been pretty quick to respond to me. How much the fact I work for another side of the company plays in that I don't know, but I've encountered a few bugs specific to my virtual account and they've worked them out or told me how to work them out in little or no time.

I have to tell you, the new version is awesome. I liked 1.0, but didn't use it near as much as I wanted because it lacked some flexibility that this version DEFINITELY has. There is a learning curve associated with using it, but I've been able to figure it out so far - and I'm not the most sophisticated webmaster in the technical area (I've got references from the Tech Support desks of a couple of hosts if you want them :) ).

Just my biased 2 cents worth ...



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Jan 19 2003, 05:25 PM

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Jan 19 2003, 04:27 PM
Seems like more programmers would have released something, right?

DV
Working on it Dianna, working on it...lol....

Total Control Desktop and Server versions are on the stove beening stirred as we speak.... It will be a while yet though...

If I could quit my day time, I might have a full release of the Desktop by March... with the server side version shortly thereafter, but since I have a family to feed and house payments etc, it will probably not see a full release until June or so.....

Right now I have several Betas up and running, but I don't release until everything is stable stable....

So be looking and watching...

(desktop for windows written in FoxPro, can use Foxpro databases, MySql databases, SQL Server, Oracle or Access..... Server side for windows utilizes the Total Control CGI engine (developed in Fox) or ASP or PHP ca use Fox Databases, MYSql, SQL Server, Oracle or Access... Linux server side version in PHP can use Fox (dbf) or MYSql databases...

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by sarettah+Jan 19 2003, 07:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sarettah @ Jan 19 2003, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Dianna Vesta@Jan 19 2003, 04:27 PM
Seems like more programmers would have released something, right?

DV
Working on it Dianna, working on it...lol....

Total Control Desktop and Server versions are on the stove beening stirred as we speak.... It will be a while yet though...

If I could quit my day time, I might have a full release of the Desktop by March... with the server side version shortly thereafter, but since I have a family to feed and house payments etc, it will probably not see a full release until June or so.....

Right now I have several Betas up and running, but I don't release until everything is stable stable....

So be looking and watching...

(desktop for windows written in FoxPro, can use Foxpro databases, MySql databases, SQL Server, Oracle or Access..... Server side for windows utilizes the Total Control CGI engine (developed in Fox) or ASP or PHP ca use Fox Databases, MYSql, SQL Server, Oracle or Access... Linux server side version in PHP can use Fox (dbf) or MYSql databases...[/b][/quote]
No offense to you but I hear a lot of talk and little real action on that end. I've worked through at least 4 programmers, left hanging and have come to the conclusion that if it's not already done, working and support ready, it ain't worth talking about.

But- good luck!

[Dravyk]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 19 2003, 03:32 PM
Dianna I read somewhere about content god being buggy, having a few problems, and not the best support. I think it was on GFY.
If it's on GFY, then it must be true, huh Mike? :nyanya:

But no, I read GFY constantly and no one has ever said ANY thing like that on GFY, nor on any other forum either, about Content God. So you must be thinking of some other software being discussed. Knowing GFY, probably one of those gallery submitter programs.

Content God is not buggy (it's not 100% bug-free but any software that claims it is is lying) and we have incredible and very fast support.

The perk with Content God is I can buy the lite version, try all it's features and then upgrade if I like it.

Exactly Diana. And at half the price and no extra fees. In fact please check out our comparison guide and you'll be pleasantly surprised. :awinky: http://www.contentgod.com/compare.html

Did it come with other docs that were simple to understand? Were you able to use it right away?

Content God comes with online help at the menu screen. A near-future version (2.x) will also include context-sensitive help. With any of these CMS's you cannot use it right away. To be able to be powerful and flexible there is a short learning curve on all of them. (On some, a longer learning curve because of lack of documentation.)

There is also a set-up period of creating your e-catalog (linking your niche criteria and descriptions to the image sets), making and tweeking your templates, getting your sponsor promo material and your recip buttons up and assigned. But once you've done the set-up work, the speed of automated gallery and site creation will quickly show that that set-up time was well worth it.

From what I'm reading here, Content God will NOT do everything currently on your wishlist, Dianna. (Not yet.) But then again neither are any of the competitors able to do everything you mentioned at this point either. So there's definitely choices that will have to be made.

Please do not hesitiate to ask more questions privately or publicly, and we appreciate your interest.




Last edited by Dravyk at Jan 19 2003, 08:15 PM

[Mike AI]

Drav, PD - you guys have come on like lions....

I have no doubt CG is a solid program. We have been looking at solutions for our members areas. We will be evaluating all the programs. So far, I really have no been impressed with any enough to pull the trigger on them.

Especially for some of the pricing, that is why I am looking to develop my own. One thing I have learned is if you want something done right, and specific to your needs get custom programing done for yourself.

Of course most programmers suck, so that is not a solution for everyone.

[Dravyk]

Hey Mike!

Since I first started buying programs years ago, I was never satisfied with "off the rack". Think my very first script was modified / customized. And since then nearly any scriptware I've purchased (except for two banner programs) I've had modified or built to spec. So I know where you are coming from.

Content God began as an exclusive script for my company only. It was after various delays (death in the family, other shit at the time), that when I came back to the project to get it built I realized a) there were other programs out there that were selling for ridiculous amounts of money and yet the one I was having built for myself already had 80-85% of their functionality in it ... and so could be sold for less and B) that other webmasters had a simililar need or desire for one, but could not afford the price of having it done exclusively for them.

The third thing I noticed, was the scripts I saw were from programmers, but where were THEIR freesites? Their AVS sites? Their TGP galleries? Did I know any of these people from the boards over the years? Did I know them as adult webmasters? No. None of them did I know of or hear of before coming across their sites and scripts. While that doesn't mean they weren't webmasters, it means I saw these products as coming from companies, from programmers, not with adult webmaster experience behind them. (Again, they might have it, I'm just saying at the time my observation.) So I think the advantage Content God has is "it's by adult webmasters for adult webmasters."

Btw, if anyone wants a customized version to meet their needs, with features not curently in the program, we can work with you.



Last edited by Dravyk at Jan 19 2003, 08:30 PM

[Mike AI]

Drav, I know some very good programers who have done very well in adult - you just do not see them publicly.

As far as customizng scripts, I always would advise people if they have the money build their own, so they have full control.

Why would someone like me give you all my unique, cool ideas for you guys to charge me to add to your script, that you would then sell to other webmasters.

Have to keep somethings proprietary..... unique ideas are rare in this business.

[Dravyk]

Drav, I know some very good programers who have done very well in adult - you just do not see them publicly.

True.

As far as customizng scripts, I always would advise people if they have the money build their own, so they have full control.

For the same reasons have I had so many exclusive scripts made as well.

Why would someone like me give you all my unique, cool ideas for you guys to charge me to add to your script, that you would then sell to other webmasters.

It comes down to a matter of money. If we have a product or service that has everything someone else would want in theirs, why should they reinvent the wheel? And do so at 10X the cost to them?

Have to keep somethings proprietary..... unique ideas are rare in this business.

Amen, brother!!

[DAMNMAN]

Dravyk

Just wondering.

Why did you choose Perl instead of PHP?

With the server load of most big sites (or a bunch of sites feeding from the program all at once) won't Perl be slower than PHP all other things being equal?

I like the functionality of your program BTW.

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Dianna Vesta@Jan 19 2003, 07:33 PM
No offense to you but I hear a lot of talk and little real action on that end. I've worked through at least 4 programmers, left hanging and have come to the conclusion that if it's not already done, working and support ready, it ain't worth talking about.

But- good luck!
No Offense taken....

[*KK*]

If price and timing aren't important, you should always get your own, provided you realize the difference between estimates and real time, especially on timing.

PHP? While I am by NO means technical, and PHP is a wonderful language, I've had enough programmers I asked about custom projects lately tell me that it's not a hearty language for what *I* want to do that I seriously wonder what it is for...

[DAMNMAN]

Originally posted by *KK*@Jan 19 2003, 09:39 PM
If price and timing aren't important, you should always get your own, provided you realize the difference between estimates and real time, especially on timing.

PHP? While I am by NO means technical, and PHP is a wonderful language, I've had enough programmers I asked about custom projects lately tell me that it's not a hearty language for what *I* want to do that I seriously wonder what it is for...
Did these programmers recommend Perl over PHP for speed?

I think not!!!

Or did you need the power of C?

[Dravyk]

Why did you choose Perl instead of PHP? With the server load of most big sites (or a bunch of sites feeding from the program all at once) won't Perl be slower than PHP all other things being equal?

Damnman, let me quote directly from the site FAQ:

Q. I like PHP better. Do you have a PHP version of the program instead of Perl?

A. No. There is nothing wrong with Perl. In fact, Perl is more powerful and has greater flexibility than PHP and it works on more servers than PHP does. Ah, but you say PHP has more speed. It might. Not a lot more, but a little more. Guess what? Since Content God is not serving the images, galleries and sites in real-time ... since it is creating them, and bang, they are done ... there is no need for speed in the case of gallery and site creation. Therefore what you need is power and flexibility, not a few more seconds of speed. For that reason Content God is written in Perl.

To put it another way: there are times you need a racing car, and there are times what you need is a 4by4 monster pickup truck and a tow line, and you gotta know which is which and use the right one for the right job.

Hope that helps. :-)) One more thing though. Perl can be done wrong or badly. If there's too much code it can be very slow next to PHP. If it's written tightly by a superior programmer it can be just as fast as PHP. Fortunately I have good people coding for me.


I've had enough programmers I asked about custom projects lately tell me that it's not a hearty language for what *I* want to do that I seriously wonder what it is for...

KK, it's that "hearty enough"aspect that's the exact reason why Content God is done in Perl.

As to PHP, it has it's uses; it's especially good for real-time delivery. Let's say a real-time Rate-My-Ass site. Good for those sites that grab news from elsewhere and spit it out on a portal. Also both my links list and All Of 'Em have been upgraded to PHP. (It can in realtime rotate the links differently to every surfer and that's 14K links.) But no, IMHO, PHP is most certainly not robust; it also is not very flexible. But it has it's uses.

[RawAlex]

Just a personal opinion....

you have to be very careful in selecting any "automation" software to make sure that you avoid looking like everyone else. Your galleries and sites can get lost in a seas of similar sites if you are not careful.

Also, everyone works differently, we all see the process differently. Be careful in selecting any tool that makes you significantly change the way you are working, you might find the losses exceed the gains.

I build my own tools, my sites look like I would build them by hand, and I am comfortable with the end results... :-)

Dravyk's product is kewl... if I didn't feel the urge to rip it apart and redo it "my way", I would probably use it. :-)

Alex

[*KK*]

Originally posted by DAMNMAN@Jan 19 2003, 06:45 PM
[Did these programmers recommend Perl over PHP for speed?

I think not!!!

Or did you need the power of C?
Doug sweetheart, I love you guys :)

It's all about the power. What else is there?

[Dravyk]

Alex, knowing how you program everything you have, that's high praise. Thanks!

I love you guys. It's all about the power.

Funny you should say that, Kimmy! In my introductory help file I say: "This is a powerful program. That's not just marketing, it's a fact. Content God is what Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor would make, the "after" it's been juiced up version." B)

[Plugger]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 19 2003, 05:17 PM
One thing I have learned is if you want something done right, and specific to your needs get custom programing done for yourself.

Of course most programmers suck, so that is not a solution for everyone.
Mike AI,

I agree whoelheartdly. That is why I have have done most of our coding ourselves, or at least hired people I knew I could trust. There are TOO many FAUX programers out there :grrr:

[Plugger]

Originally posted by Dravyk@Jan 19 2003, 07:45 PM
There is nothing wrong with Perl. In fact, Perl is more powerful and has greater flexibility than PHP and it works on more servers than PHP does.
Dravyk,

Please tell me what I cannot do in PHP that can be done in PERL? I code in both, and I find that PHP has many more functions for generating dynamic webpages, and is easier to interface with MySQL, and is MUCH faster than PERL. PERL and PHP both have their places, but I cannot see how PERL is more powerful, esp. on automation, than PHP.

[Plugger]

Originally posted by DAMNMAN@Jan 19 2003, 06:45 PM

Or did you need the power of C?


If you are doing any SERIOUS traffic, C is the ONLY way to go. It will hands down flaten PERL, and even beat the most efficient PHP scripts. We have all of the in/out cgi's of www.pickapicka.com coded in C/MySQL and we have all of our banner rotation scripts in C. Any thing that does mass traffic must be in C:unsure:

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 19 2003, 08:17 PM
Drav, PD - you guys have come on like lions....

I have no doubt CG is a solid program. We have been looking at solutions for our members areas. We will be evaluating all the programs. So far, I really have no been impressed with any enough to pull the trigger on them.

Especially for some of the pricing, that is why I am looking to develop my own. One thing I have learned is if you want something done right, and specific to your needs get custom programing done for yourself.

Of course most programmers suck, so that is not a solution for everyone.
I felt the same way. I've been online a long time. Having built my sites by hand I knew exactly what I wanted but couldn't find anything flexiable enough for my needs. I must have a dozen expensive and useless scripts lying around taking up space on my servers.

I created an outline for a programmer that would later also give me the ability to lease my content, adding permisisons to certain directories. The CMS I wanted needed full automation to publish updates the way I set them up.

The problem is programmers. Mike if you're set on developing something I'd love to here more about it and if you're open to it, I'd love to work with you on this and help you defray cost if it's something I can use.

Otherwise, once I do find a programmer I'll develop something so flexiable anyone can use it.

PS: I'm looking for a community based script as well.

[Mike AI]

Plugger, I am no programer. But I try to keep up with trends and such... I really do not know anyone programing in PERL anymore... everything has gone to PHP. But hey, what do I know?

[RawAlex]

Mike, problem is for a long time, people were using perl to do what is isn't all that good at, doing things dynamically. PHP is way more effecient and simple when it comes to creating dynamic web sites, in basic redirection, and tracking. It is very friendly to many types of databases without plugins...

Diana: You get into that "what I really want and how I really work" thing that makes commercial programs harder to work with. There are some really good programmers out there that can do the work, but the good ones are usually booked many months ahead!

Alex



Last edited by RawAlex at Jan 20 2003, 10:36 AM

[Dianna Vesta]

Originally posted by RawAlex@Jan 20 2003, 10:35 AM

Diana: You get into that "what I really want and how I really work" thing that makes commercial programs harder to work with. There are some really good programmers out there that can do the work, but the good ones are usually booked many months ahead!

Alex
I realize this to some degree.

Ok, so let's talk about this and see where the programs really lack. If you look at most adult sites here is their structure:

index
tour (2 to 10 pages)
samples
/members - cat1, cat2, etc.
Affiliate program

Most CMS's are now allowing you to build AVS and TPG on the fly. That's a good thing, I suppose but I see that as another module or program. Then again management of content is just that so it probably doesn't matter.

Hmmm I think I'd like to see a product that easily lets you build adult sites. It includes plug-in features that give you easy access to permissions (that are reasonably safe) full automation of publishing content where you want it and how you want it and the ability to have template control.

Speaking of PHP- I don't currently own any PHP sites but I think I'll be moving towards this pretty soon. I always trust my gut when it comes to these things because I'm not a programmer...I'm a business woman and as a business woman I research and evaluate the options that best suit my business now and in the future. Based on my experience as a business woman I know that NEW always needs time to debug and settle. I never buy anything that's just been released for an important project. I consider myself a trend setter and will be the first to try a beta program as long as it doesn't affect my bread & butter.

I like the clean styles and modules of PHP. I just don't understand (yet) how to make it work for me. There are scripts out there I know can be modified to work for me.

Here's what I want in a nutshell:

I don't want the standard tour. I prefer publishing the newest updates on the home page with samples. Then there's an archive. I want non-members to see what kind of updates we have.

I want non-members to at least register to see larger samples & I want to harvest those people.

You upgrade to levels of access.

Content is content - html, video, audio, etc.

I don't own all my content but the content I do own that old and out dated, I'd like to lease out, trade or give away.

I'd LOVE to combine CMS with a community script like PHPNUKE that allows access controls via subscription that passes the info yet keeps it on my secure server. The most popular processors.

Does anyone have a rebilling script that works with Authorize.Net?

[sarettah]

No offense to you but I hear a lot of talk and little real action on that end. I've worked through at least 4 programmers, left hanging and have come to the conclusion that if it's not already done, working and support ready, it ain't worth talking about.
************************************************** **********************
Of course most programmers suck, so that is not a solution for everyone.
************************************************** **********************
The third thing I noticed, was the scripts I saw were from programmers, but where were THEIR freesites? Their AVS sites? Their TGP galleries? Did I know any of these people from the boards over the years? Did I know them as adult webmasters? No. None of them did I know of or hear of before coming across their sites and scripts. While that doesn't mean they weren't webmasters, it means I saw these products as coming from companies, from programmers, not with adult webmaster experience behind them. (Again, they might have it, I'm just saying at the time my observation.) So I think the advantage Content God has is "it's by adult webmasters for adult webmasters."
************************************************** *********************
Drav, I know some very good programers who have done very well in adult - you just do not see them publicly.
As far as customizng scripts, I always would advise people if they have the money build their own, so they have full control.
Why would someone like me give you all my unique, cool ideas for you guys to charge me to add to your script, that you would then sell to other webmasters.
Have to keep somethings proprietary..... unique ideas are rare in this business.
************************************************** *********************
PHP? While I am by NO means technical, and PHP is a wonderful language, I've had enough programmers I asked about custom projects lately tell me that it's not a hearty language for what *I* want to do that I seriously wonder what it is for...
************************************************** *********************
you have to be very careful in selecting any "automation" software to make sure that you avoid looking like everyone else. Your galleries and sites can get lost in a seas of similar sites if you are not careful.
Also, everyone works differently, we all see the process differently. Be careful in selecting any tool that makes you significantly change the way you are working, you might find the losses exceed the gains.
************************************************** *********************
I agree whoelheartdly. That is why I have have done most of our coding ourselves, or at least hired people I knew I could trust. There are TOO many FAUX programers out there
************************************************** *********************
The problem is programmers. Mike if you're set on developing something I'd love to here more about it and if you're open to it, I'd love to work with you on this and help you defray cost if it's something I can use.
Otherwise, once I do find a programmer I'll develop something so flexiable anyone can use it.
************************************************** *********************
Plugger, I am no programer. But I try to keep up with trends and such... I really do not know anyone programing in PERL anymore... everything has gone to PHP. But hey, what do I know?
************************************************** *********************
Diana: You get into that "what I really want and how I really work" thing that makes commercial programs harder to work with. There are some really good programmers out there that can do the work, but the good ones are usually booked many months ahead!
************************************************** *********************

Takes a realllllll deeep breath...............

Ok, I have been following this thread with interest...lol... Have been holding back my comments but finally decided to dive on in :)

First of all.... Dravyk, I have not seen Content God (have seen the specs listed on the site and such) so, I am not makingany comments about the package in any way.. If it does everything you say it does then it is probably at present the strongest full package available right now.. and your comments above, about how it was developed hit the nail right on the head....

Lots of bagging on programmers in this thread... I am a fairly newbie webmaster, but I am a 20+ year programmer and systems designer, and as such, I am taking it upon myself to do a little defending.. :)

First of all... MOST programmers are not great designers. For a system to work properly, it must first be designed properly... I see, in our industry, a lot of folks working with individual scripts, not a package.. Almost any programmer can pull off an individual script that does it's one thing properly. Putting together a system, or package if you will, is a completely different story... From my experience in system design, the designer must have a complete understanding of what he/she is trying to automate.... You cannot just go hire a programmer, explain in user terms what you want and expect a good solid program out (unless you are in the 1% of users who actually know how to describe a process). A good design will come from many hours of observing how people do a particular task... In the scenario that Dravyk describes above, he used folks who had actually built sites to define and create Content God. This is the right way to do it. Quite often, programmers get blamed for not being able to complete a project. In my experience, many people hiring programmers do not know how to define a project. Often definition is in pieces.. I want it to do such and such and such and such. The programmer takes this and runs with it and produces his INTERPRETATION of "such and such and such and such". His interpretation is not what the user expected, so therefore the programmer has screwed up. Not the way it should be looked at in reality. When designing a package, the designere should sit down with the users and get all the info he can extract from them. He should them diagram it out, work up some screen mockups and process mockups, go back in front of the users and say "Is this what you wanted?". The answer from the users is almost always "no" on the first round. The designer takes teh feedback from the users, makes adjustments, re-presents to them and then repeats and repeats until the users are saying, "Yes, that is what I want". At that point, the designer can produce a set of system specifications that virtually any programmer could code from. Unfortunately, that process takes a lot more time than most users are willing to give. Users don't understand why the programmer cannot just sit down and code what the user says to code. Well, most of the time the programmer does code what the user SAYS they want, unfortunately, what the user SAYS they want is not usually what they actually WANT. There are many good programmers out there (mainstream and adult) that can code virtually any system if it is well designed, there are bad programmers out there too, they usually end up out of work or working for a consulting firm and getting lots of bench time. If you are trying to come up with a good package that covers all your needs and is flexible enough to be added to without much effort... A good dynamic system that basically acts like it thinks for itself, then you want to start with a good systems designer, NOT a programmer.

The comment above "Be careful in selecting any tool that makes you significantly change the way you are working, you might find the losses exceed the gains." is a very true one, unfortunately, the only way to avoid "significant changes in your work habits" is to have a package designed that emulates exactly the way you do your work.

Unfortunately, that option is a very expensive one. To have a system designed especially for you means that you are paying ALL of the development costs (my current charge for design hours is $100.00/hour, coding is $75.00, and I am considered cheap around here..lol). If the designer/programmer is going to be allowed to market the package, then they might work with you on a split deal or a royalty deal.... If you cannot afford "Full Customization", then you are stuck with "off the shelve" or something that someone else has developed. At that point, you have adjustments to make to your work habits to use the package effectively.

A BIG misunderstanding often occurs between USERs and Designers/programmers during the definition process. Often the user describes everything in INPUT terms, "well, I want them to enter their email address...etc etc etc". When I am designing a system, I could not care less what INPUT the user thinks they need. I want to know what the user wants OUT of the system. The OUTPUT should always drive the input, not vice versa. Way too often, the definition of reports is "to be defined later". Doesn't work. If I do not know what you want out of the system, I can not possibly decide what to capture and how to capture it on the front end. If I know what you want out, I can define what needs to go in. My favorite example of that comes from my "Junkmail" days. I was working for one of the largest Junkmailers in the country, doing custom marketing database solutions. The client decided that they wanted to mail Birthday cards to their database members, unfortunately, while investigating the database we found that although AGE was captured, none of the client input devices had ever asked for BIRTHDATE. In the clients eyes, they were the same thing, but they are not. We ended up in many hours of trying to define an accurate algorithm to pinpoint the birthday based on how many times a member had answered the AGE question and what the date was when they answered. The algorithm ended up being accurate to within 364 days. The client was angry over the whole situation, but when we went back to the OUTPUT definition, never had a birthday mailing been mentioned, the only thing they wanted reported was an age report. They had already been asking the AGE quwestion before they came to us as a client, so without knowing that they were going to want to do the Birthday tracking, noone had suggested that they change the question. Was this the Programmers fault. hardly...

Anyway, I have gone on and on on this, I don't know if I have made my point...lol... But hopefullym, I have contributed to the discussion.. from a programmers point of view.

[Dravyk]

Please tell me what I cannot do in PHP that can be done in PERL? I code in both, and I find that PHP has many more functions for generating dynamic webpages, and is easier to interface with MySQL, and is MUCH faster than PERL. PERL and PHP both have their places, but I cannot see how PERL is more powerful, esp. on automation, than PHP.

Plugger, while I admit I myself am not a programmer, although after the last eight months I could direct a team of programmers and developers, and have, at this point ... Let me give you my opinion on PHP and Perl based on what I've heard from programmers and seen myself. Perl has been around for quite some time compared to PHP, it therefore has a lot more support, it was unlike PHP built to be a language not a web language, it has literally tons of modules available at CPAN that give it the raw power to do things PHP cannot do. .... That said, I am certain the Perl vs. PHP debates will go on for many years more, as to which is better, fastest, can leap tall buildings in a single bound, etc.


Dianna, from what you listed it sounds very much like you require your own exclusively written script. Please feel free to hit me up at dravyk at allofem dot com if you'd like discuss the possibility of my team making it for you.


Sarettah, whew, lots to think about there! You haven't seen it? Try out the public demo on the site.

As for programmers, and input, and interpretation and all that you've mentioned .... Whew, I know what you're talking about. There is me, and my vision of what I want done. Then there is my team leader who has done adult sites but is mostly a programmer; because of his experience he has some idea of things, he can also serve as interface and translator between me and the other programmers on the team. Ironically, the best programmer on the team knows code but has to be explained what this or that is in adult as he doesn't do sites. But once something is explained (you must make this do this and this) he accomplishes it flawlessly. Then ... Oh it gets too complicated just thinking about it!!

Suffice to say I notice programmers (and I am not bagging on them) do tend to get tunnel vision. Think of a incredible soloist musician, who cannot figure out a way to work with the orchestra, who can do their part incredibly better than anyone, yet doesn't see where it fits into the whole. That's when you have the people above who are like the conductor or the construction manager or the architect, pull the various elements together in a way that it all works and works fluidly.

Another funny thing about programmers is they think so logically. "Well, it is obvious that if the box says put in Y there, that no one will put in W there." And I say, "we're webmasters, we don't know what you mean when you say put Y there. We'll put 123ABC in there and break it." In short, I'm always saying put in more error checking and more redundencies and make sure there is an "are you sure you want to delete?" button and not just a straight delete everything button, etc.

Or when it comes to procedure they'll put this here and then that. And I say, "but a webmaster doesn't build it that way; they do this, then they do this in this order, so you have to have it in that order." And they go "why? Our way is more logical." And I say, "but you're not the one who's going to be using it; they are! So you're going to make it their way instead."

[sarettah]

Sarettah, whew, lots to think about there! You haven't seen it? Try out the public demo on the site.

Perl has been around for quite some time compared to PHP, it therefore has a lot more support, it was unlike PHP built to be a language not a web language...

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Hi Dravyk :)

I looked for you in Vegas but unfortunately never managed to hook up (don't even know if you were there, but assume you were), wanted to yak with you a bit about CG and various other stuff.... I haven't looked at your demo yet because I am currently developing a package (in conjunction with many many other projects). I have a rule that if I am developing something I don't look at what other folks have done until I get through my first rough cut of the entire implementation... That way, nobody can accuse me of stealing stuff :) I know that seems paranoid, but "Just cause I'm paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me". I did manage to hook up with Old Tom (who still writes in PERL for anyone who thinks NOONE uses it anymore).

The whole PERL versus PHP versus C is all bullshit imho. It is the Linux version of Basic versus C versus FoxPro versus whatever that goes on in the Windows world.. The COBOL versus Assembler that goes on in the Mainframe world (yes Virginia, there is still COBOL in the world), not to mention the Mac versus PC argument... Everything has their fans. I know many old timers out there who still swear by assembler. To me it is a tedious level to work at, but in the hands of the right person, it is powerful stuff... Fact is, any Programming language can be made to work well in the hands of a pro and any language can be made to work dog ass slow in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

The original PHP was written in perl, by the way. And PERL was never really intended to be a programming language per se. It is a Unix/linux utility actually that was invented to be able to pull in text and spit it out in a formatted manner... actual acronym was Practical Extraction and Report Language. It is basically a report language (Any of you folks remember RPG on the IBM 34/36/38... Hell probably a lot of that code still running out there... RPG stood for Report Generation Program or some such). I report language differs from a Programming language in that a report language usually does not have to be super logic intensive... It reads in text and writes out formatted text.. That was PERL's original function. Through the years, it has ben reworked and rewritten into a fairly powerful language in which you can do some heavy duty logic routines etc.. But it's best functionality is still reading input and writing output... It can suck in entire text files into one string, many languages do not have that latent ability... Reading input and writing output makes it suited for good strong CGI apps.... PHP was originally doctored up PERL....

PHP has since been rewritten with C underneath (what hasn't) and it has been written with the NET in mind. Pretty much any other language was originally written for something else. PHP's strength is that it was written to interface with servers and produce HTML output... Thus, it is a very strong language in that department.

Myself, I am a windows database programmer. I work in the windows environment because fully 90% of business apps in the PC world are in Windows. I have only recently turned my attention to the NET programming wise. I program predominantly in FoxPro because I like it and it is a hell of a lot more powerful then most of the other stuff out there. FoxPro is XBase and uses Dbf formatted files (straight text sequential with a header in front) because of this, it is flat ass fast, when written properly.... It is written (once again) in C underneath everything.

Anyway, the whole point of this post is that there are not necessarilly good languages or bad languages. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. In the hands of a pro, any language can be powerful, quick and robust. In the hands of someone who doesnt know what they are doing, they can be dangerous and cost you a ton of money.....

Just so you all know, I neither view myself as a pro or an amateur...lol.. or even a programmer... I am an Artist...lololol... and was given that dubious honor by my college Cobol instructor... After going up and arguing with him about the 2 points he had taken off my program and challenging him to show me a better way if he didn't like the way I did something, He stood up and addressed the class..he said "There are programmers, and there are Artists", then he looked directly in the eye and said "You are a goddamn artist".... One of my proudest moments...lol

Dravyk, on the lone musician, that is a fairly good analogy. If programmers liked to work in teams, or talk to people, they wouldn't be programmers...lol... Most programmers I knew are not exactly super socialites.... I like programming because computers don't argue with me, at least not often... and if they do argue, I'm allowed to hit them :)

[RawAlex]

computers don't argue with me, at least not often... and if they do argue, I'm allowed to hit them

And when they do argue with you, sooner or later, you can make them come around to your way of thinking...

Alex

[Plugger]

Originally posted by sarettah@Jan 20 2003, 07:19 PM
Anyway, the whole point of this post is that there are not necessarilly good languages or bad languages. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. In the hands of a pro, any language can be powerful, quick and robust. In the hands of someone who doesnt know what they are doing, they can be dangerous and cost you a ton of money.....

Okay, this I agree with this, however (so I do not totally agree :grrr: ), PERL, PHP and C have there places, I use all depending on the task at hand. But all said and done, depending on the task, ALL languages are not created equal. For high demand applications C (C++) will hands down kick ass! There is no way the best PRO can get the same high demand task done in PERL as fast as C.

On the other hand, if you want to write some sort of spider for Unix, I'd go with PERL. It would be easier to code and most likely the speed of C would not be worth the effort in programming (C is not an easy language, you have to manage everything correctly, whereas PERL and PHP handle most of that low-level memory management, etc. for you).

And, if I wanted to generate web pages on the fly (dynamic) I would probably go with PHP because of its easy intergration with HTML, and DBs (esp. MySQL).

The other thing to consider, is the acceptance of the languages. COBOL may be alive and kicking, but I can find many more (perhaps 100s more) programers that could work on my PERL, PHP, and C code! So unless you want to be married to some programmer who is coding in some older languae, I'd say stick with what is predominately out there. I hear that Python is faster than PHP, and JAVA (not JavaScript) has ton's of potential, but not too many people are coding for the web in those languages compared to the BIG 3, PERL, PHP and C.

Just my thoughts, and that is why we do everything in house; there is no one answer, no one CMS that will work for everyone. If you want 100% compatabilty with the way you do business have you own system written . . . if you want to do it the way many other people do it, but a program :yowsa: I'd sell you mine, but I have too much video to shoot :wankit:

[sarettah]

Hey Plugger.........

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For high demand applications C (C++) will hands down kick ass! There is no way the best PRO can get the same high demand task done in PERL as fast as C.
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True for the most part, but a diehard assembler programmer would point out that assembler can kick C's ass too :) I definitely believe in the right tool for the job.....


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C is not an easy language, you have to manage everything correctly
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Most obfuscated mess ever created...;p (well, C++ is actually the MOST obfuscated....

*********************************************
COBOL may be alive and kicking, but I can find many more (perhaps 100s more) programers that could work on my PERL, PHP, and C code!
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Yes, and I would never reccomend COBOL as a WEB language... But if you happen to have an IBM43XX series mainframe laying around and wanted to write some backend routines, COBOL would be the way to go...

[Nickatilynx]

Is it just me or are sarettah's post really hard to read?

(no offence meant)

[originalheather]

Having a command of the English language helps with reading :P

But I know that's hard for you fake fucking brits :nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 21 2003, 01:57 PM
Is it just me or are sarettah's post really hard to read?

(no offence meant)
sorry bout that.....

Do I need to make them less verbose ? or more informative ?

[Dravyk]

Is it just me or are sarettah's post really hard to read?

Do I need to make them less verbose ? or more informative ?

Sarettah, if you speak in smaller words and write slower, Nick might be able to keep up with you. The fact is, when you didn't mention the word "money" in the first 100 words, Nick's eyes glossed over and lost interest anyhow. :P

Yep I was at the convention making my rounds. Sorry we didn't bump into each other.

[heqdvd]

XML is the future of everything.

[Nickatilynx]

The fact is, when you didn't mention the word "money" in the first 100 words, Nick's eyes glossed over and lost interest anyhow.

Dravyk's right. (A first for that statement) :)

Remember Serge,I think,for instance, does not read a post more than 5 lines long.

[sarettah]

Ok, (money), got it (spam) use certain (money) key words and (spam) dont use (money) any periods (bulk email traffic allowed) so that (money) even my longest (kaching) posts are less (money and more money to be made with no work necessary) than 5 (money) lines each.....

:lol:

[Dravyk]

Sarettah, LOL!! Now Nick's no doubt got a woody!!!

[Nickatilynx]

Ok, (money), got it (spam) use certain (money) key words and (spam) dont use (money) any periods (bulk email traffic allowed) so that (money) even my longest (kaching) posts are less (money and more money to be made with no work necessary) than 5 (money) lines each.....



PEARL!!!!!!!!!

:agrin: