Interesting Tax Talk On Netpond

[Winetalk.com]

LAMike, AndyA,
my heart bleeds for you
;-=))
http://www.netpond.com/msgboard/

[Mike AI]

Serge, the US Tax system is one that punishes success. It is merely a re-distribution of wealth from those who earn it to those who do not.

The biggest scam is the whole tax code which is hundred of thousands of pages, and changed monthly. This is written to benefit tax attorneys, CPAs, and accountants.

A flat tax would be the solution. It would be fair, easy to handle and administrate, and in the long term bring in more money.

Too many special interests groups in Washington change tax code to give huge corporations and other people major tax breaks. I remember reading that Enron never paid any federal taxs.... what bullshit!

[Winetalk.com]

and still...I wish YOU to pay 10,000,000 in taxes EVERY year for as long as you live
;-)))

I posted my ZERO tax strategy on Netpond
;-))

wanna pay ZERO taxes?

[Sword]

Yes a flat tax would be the best thing to happen to this country in a long time. Unfortunately it'll probably never happen. Can you even imagine all the accountants and attorneys that would be unemployed if the tax system were actually simple and fair like it ought to be?

:angry:

[kath]

Originally posted by Sword@Jan 17 2003, 01:11 PM
Yes a flat tax would be the best thing to happen to this country in a long time. Unfortunately it'll probably never happen. Can you even imagine all the accountants and attorneys that would be unemployed if the tax system were actually simple and fair like it ought to be?

:angry:
*sigh*

Oh....sorry....just picturing all of those assholes out of business. What a nice thought. ;)

Good discussion on Netpond though - when it comes to taxes, everyone has an opinon. :blink:

[Hooper]

I think that progressive taxes are overall fair only because the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to find loopholes, tax free investments, 401k's and other things like that.

but the rates themselves are ridiculous. nearly 39% PPLLLUUUSSSS $95k if you make a good living????

that's ridiculous. And unfortunate because it leaves some people in the boat of paying what amounts to nearly 60% and that's just in personal income tax!

I hear belize is selling citizenship for 100k and you get to live tax free for 20 years! :-)

[Hell Puppy]

The annual taxtime whining is starting over on GFY already as well...

Lots of those guys making $30-40K, living large in mom's basement or with 2-3 roommates. But they've paid no estimated tax, aren't incorporated and now suddenly face $10-15K due all at once and they realize they spent it all on beer.

I'm with Serge on this one....if I had to write the government a check for $100 million in taxes, I'd be a happy man.

[Torone]

Want to get rid of the income tax?

(A) Do away with withholding and make everyone write a check at the end of the year.
(B) Make the Senators and Representatives reveal ALL of their income tax info every year (ALL Parties).
:D



Last edited by Torone at Jan 18 2003, 09:23 AM

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Torone@Jan 18 2003, 09:22 AM
Want to get rid of the income tax?

(A) Do away with withholding and make everyone write a check at the end of the year.
(B) Make the Senators and Representatives reveal ALL of their income tax info every year (ALL Parties).
:D
why not just get a good accountant? thats always seems to be the last idea or suggestion that comes up. :(

some people bitch and complain.. some people invest that same time and energy in improving the situation, getting control of their finances, educating themelves, investing wisely and creating the proper tax and business structures necessary to minimize their tax liability.

the more money you make, the lower the % of your total income you should be paying in taxes. its just a basic question of where and how you invest your money and how your business and finances are structured.

there is a reason that big companies pay nothing and poor people pay several times more. one is doing everything possible to minimize tax liability... the other is sitting on their ass and doing nothing but bitching that the other is doing everything possible to minimize tax liability.

i think our tax system strongly favors the wealthy and is heavily biased towards wealthy people. but thats life. i dont sit around and complain about "fairness" - i spend my time learning the rules of the game and playing it better.

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Hooper@Jan 17 2003, 05:31 PM

I hear belize is selling citizenship for 100k and you get to live tax free for 20 years! :-)
But you still have to pay income taxes on any income earned world wide as a US citizen, you cant live "tax free" unless you are prepared to go to the US Embassy and renounce your citizenship and give them your passport and never come home again.

:cryin:

[Hooper]

some people invest that same time and energy in improving the situation, getting control of their finances, educating themelves, investing wisely and creating the proper tax and business structures necessary to minimize their tax liability.

SHHHHHH.... You're giving away all the secrets! B)

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Hooper@Jan 18 2003, 12:34 PM
some people invest that same time and energy in improving the situation, getting control of their finances, educating themelves, investing wisely and creating the proper tax and business structures necessary to minimize their tax liability.

SHHHHHH.... You're giving away all the secrets! B)
hahaha... i can assume that since you became a "manager", you are probably more ahead of the curve than most. ;)

[Hooper]

you're still out of russia? what are taxes like there?

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 17 2003, 03:53 PM
Serge, the US Tax system is one that punishes success. It is merely a re-distribution of wealth from those who earn it to those who do not.

The biggest scam is the whole tax code which is hundred of thousands of pages, and changed monthly. This is written to benefit tax attorneys, CPAs, and accountants.

A flat tax would be the solution. It would be fair, easy to handle and administrate, and in the long term bring in more money.

Too many special interests groups in Washington change tax code to give huge corporations and other people major tax breaks. I remember reading that Enron never paid any federal taxs.... what bullshit!
I personally prefer a national sales tax myself. Either way the current system sucks ass and needs to be changed.

[rask]

Originally posted by Hooper@Jan 17 2003, 02:31 PM
I think that progressive taxes are overall fair only because the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to find loopholes, tax free investments, 401k's and other things like that.

but the rates themselves are ridiculous. nearly 39% PPLLLUUUSSSS $95k if you make a good living????

that's ridiculous. And unfortunate because it leaves some people in the boat of paying what amounts to nearly 60% and that's just in personal income tax!

I hear belize is selling citizenship for 100k and you get to live tax free for 20 years! :-)
The current system for income tax in the U.S. comes down hardest on the middle class. The poor aren't paying anything. The rich can afford lawyers to set up tax shelters for them and come out way ahead. It's only the middle class giving 50% of their incomes to the IRS. Replacing the income tax with a flat national sales tax seems a lot more fair. The national sales tax would have to be about 19% to replace current income tax revenues. One nice bonus to it would be that it would tax the underground economy to some extent. Drug dealers, for instance, would be paying a lot more in taxes than they do now.

Belize has some great incentives to move there. If you're over 45, you can relocate there as a retiree and they won't tax you on any income you have coming in from a non-Belize-based business. As long as you don't spend more than a certain number of weeks at a time in the U.S., you won't owe U.S. income taxes either. After Florida, Belize is the most popular place that U.S. citizens retire to. It's an English-speaking country, too.

[Torone]

Jr,
My point went sailing right over your head. If people had to write that check, it wouldn't be painless like it is with withholding. That would bring an end to the career of any tax-hungry politician.

As for fairness, the idea of 'fair share' is determined by who? Fair should mean equal. After all, who is using the social services, etc.?

As for wealthy, according to the Liberals' figures delineating the classes, that means any person or family with a combined income above $92,000 per year. Most of those do not realize that they are wealthy. They can't go pay cash for a car or a house. Still, they are supposed to pay for the masses who choose not to work; but to stay home and breed (more money for each child you have).

One more point...When was the last time you got a job from a 'poor' man?



Last edited by Torone at Jan 18 2003, 03:41 PM

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Torone@Jan 18 2003, 03:39 PM
Jr,
My point went sailing right over your head. If people had to write that check, it wouldn't be painless like it is with withholding. That would bring an end to the career of any tax-hungry politician.

As for fairness, the idea of 'fair share' is determined by who? Fair should mean equal. After all, who is using the social services, etc.?

As for wealthy, according to the Liberals' figures delineating the classes, that means any person or family with a combined income above $92,000 per year. Most of those do not realize that they are wealthy. They can't go pay cash for a car or a house. Still, they are supposed to pay for the masses who choose not to work; but to stay home and breed (more money for each child you have).

One more point...When was the last time you got a job from a 'poor' man?
Torone, i understand that you spend a lot more time than most listening to A.M. Talk Radio and your views are a little warped. this occured to me after the first time you mentioned being a truck driver. Everything you say comes directly from conservative talk radio, which i would consider about as balanced as a Barbara Streisand lecture on economics.

your point is nothing unique. its been tried by many employers and people have gotten in trouble for it. i even knew a guy in Seattle who tried to do the same thing. if i recall correctly, he was giving people a mock check for the full amount, then giving them seperate checks and asking them to mail all the taxes and withholding in themselves. Gas stations do it all the time too. they post long explainations of all the taxes involved in selling gas to explain why gas prices are high... and people still dont care.

for some reason you think that a country can run itself without taxes, that its a communist conspiracy and that Clinton somehow, started the whole thing, but thats actually not the case.

i pay a VERY small part of my income in taxes and i dont break the law. Thats a fact. the money i pay for attorneys and accountants comes back to me 10-fold in tax savings. I have no sympathy for people who piss and moan and complain about they paid in taxes when they are not doing everything possible to lower them. you have to be proactive and spend time structuring your finances and investments and business in a way that minimizes tax liability, thats all. its not difficult.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Jan 19 2003, 01:45 AM

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Torone@Jan 18 2003, 03:39 PM
As for fairness, the idea of 'fair share' is determined by who? Fair should mean equal. After all, who is using the social services, etc.?

"fair" to me Torone means that the rules are pretty clear and in black and white. it means that i take every possible advantage i can of every possible means to lower my taxes.

"fair" to me means that i dont do anything that anyone else cannot.

"fair" to me means exactly this

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands."

-- Judge Learned Hand

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Hooper@Jan 18 2003, 12:54 PM
what are taxes like there?
they just passed last year a flat tax of 13% on personal income. they came from a fairly unique situation because people in Russia devote 100% of their time to figuring out new ways to defy anyone in a position of authority or government, so its pretty hard to convince them suddenly that they need to give a large chunk of their money to the government. especially so when there is so much corruption and the country is bankrupt anyway and in the transition, life suddenly got very expensive.

i think 2 years ago, come tax time only about 5% of the population filed taxes. only now are they just starting to come out of the shadows and file. also people have a habit that companies pay for them and they never really know anything about it because they just get paid in cash. companies cheat by keeping two sets of books and paying people one amount and reporting they pay 10 times less so the employees never knew much about taxes or had to care.

they are still overhauling the entire legal system and tax system. they learned the hard way that repeatedly raising taxes does not necessarily raise revenues to the government as more people just hide their income. taxes were so out of control that many different businesses were subject to 110% or more.

i think that in general, Putin has done a great job in making these changes. People forget that the Russian government is still 1/2 Communist which makes it pretty difficult to reform the economy when each reform measure moves the Communist's in the wrong direction and costs them credibility and power.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Jan 19 2003, 02:31 AM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by -= JR =-@Jan 19 2003, 01:41 AM
"fair" to me means that i dont do anything that anyone else cannot.


Fair to me means that no one else can do anything that I cannot. What you mentioned is perfectly acceptable to me.

[Torone]

Jr,
"Torone, i understand that you spend a lot more time than most listening to A.M. Talk Radio and your views are a little warped. this occured to me after the first time you mentioned being a truck driver. Everything you say comes directly from conservative talk radio, which i would consider about as balanced as a Barbara Streisand lecture on economics."

I suppose you get your information from the good ol' Communist News Network. How many times have you heard anyone call in to hold the host's feet to the fire? It never happens. That's YOUR idea of 'fair and balanced'? Pat Grey, Rush Limbaugh, Chris Baker, and Sean Hannity all allow what I consider far too many Liberal pinheads to get on the air and spout the Liberal mantra. The only one I have ever heard disconnect one of them in the last two years was Mike Savage. Does your favorite CNN personality take live calls? From Conservatives?

To address a couple of other points? you made:

I think you are slipping into a stupor of some kind. I didn't say that one employer should do away with the withholding. When it was instituted, it was supposed to be temporary. I'm saying that it is time it stopped being required by law.

'Fair share' means different things to different people. I am simply saying that the idea of a 'progressive' tax rate is patently UNFAIR.

Clinton was and is a Communist; but he didn't start the whole thing. Do your research and then comment on that issue.

I have no problem with the people paying taxes for three purposes...Defense, Infrastructure, and taking care of our veterans (possibly a part of defense).
However, taxes other than income taxes can take care of this. the income tax is being used to pay for social (read vote-buying) programs.

BTW, there is a perfectly legal way to get around the withholding. Just use independent subcontractors. You are still employing people; but you give up a modicum of control over them in order to get rid of the tax and benefits problem. Ask your tax consultant about it.

[-= JR =-]

I suppose you get your information from the good ol' Communist News Network.

i get my news wherever i can get it. its important to hear all sides. you seem to seek out information that serves only to fortify the little wall of paranoia you have built around yourself.

i am not like you. i dont consider every source of information that conflicts with my own person views or opinions to be biased and a source of Communist propoganda. I listen to other views with the aim of understanding... not to convince myself i am right.


How many times have you heard anyone call in to hold the host's feet to the fire? šIt never happens. šThat's YOUR idea of 'fair and balanced'? š

Pat Grey, Rush Limbaugh, Chris Baker, and Sean Hannity all allow what I consider far too many Liberal pinheads to get on the air and spout the Liberal mantra. š


i dont know what you mean by "fair and balanced". How many times does Sean Hannity cut people off when he disagrees with them? quite a bit! if you are denying that then you are truly beyond help.

How many times does Sean Hannity talk over the top of callers when they start to make a good point? almost always! is that fair?

the world is unfair. :(


The only one I have ever heard disconnect one of them in the last two years was Mike Savage. šDoes your favorite CNN personality take live calls? šFrom Conservatives?


1) Micheal Savage considers himself to be a Libertarian if memory serves me correctly.

2) Why would i have a favorite CNN personality? its a fucking news station reporting on the news. get over it. BBC has a very good program called Hard Talk though. Tim Sebastion is quite good at verbally tying politicians and world leaders to an old pickup and dragging them up and down the street for 30 minutes.


To address a couple of other points? you made:

I think you are slipping into a stupor of some kind. šI didn't say that one employer should do away with the withholding. šWhen it was instituted, it was supposed to be temporary. šI'm saying that it is time it stopped being required by law.


uh... ok. you said exactly " you wanna get rid of the income tax..."


'Fair share' means different things to different people. šI am simply saying that the idea of a 'progressive' tax rate is patently UNFAIR.


everyone seems to think any tax is unfair. few people have an idea of what a "fair" tax is. I have certainly never heard anyone say "hey, thats a great idea for a new tax!"


Clinton was and is a Communist; but he didn't start the whole thing. šDo your research and then comment on that issue.

you lose credibility with most people who aren't on medication, each time you say stupid shit like this. you can dislike Clinton all you like but i dont think that the people of the United States of America put a Communist in the White House.


I have no problem with the people paying taxes for three purposes...Defense, Infrastructure, and taking care of our veterans (possibly a part of defense).
However, taxes other than income taxes can take care of this. šthe income tax is being used to pay for social (read vote-buying) programs.


ok. i think all old people should suffer and die without health care and medication too. great idea. a good way to save money would be a 'Pull the Plug" lottery for hospital patients in critical condition. thats fair.


BTW, there is a perfectly legal way to get around the withholding. šJust use independent subcontractors. šYou are still employing people; but you give up a modicum of control over them in order to get rid of the tax and benefits problem. šAsk your tax consultant about it.


i know that most of your words are a matter of reflexive reaction to combat your perceived evils of Communism in the US and you tend not to think before you post. Since my infinite patience and understanding helps me to tolerate your goofy rants, i will help you through this issue of "independent contractors".

first, i did it for years while fishing in alaska. i formed my own business and wrote off all my expenses. second, it takes a willing employer.

Each state has different requirements for self employment, licenses and insurance. The costs can sometimes be substantial. if you can convince your live in nurse who feeds you your Ritalin and Prozac while keeping your AM radio in tune, to do all of this when the costs may not outweigh the benefits to him, then thats fine.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Jan 19 2003, 10:17 AM