Show In Vegas

[Winetalk.com]

am I the only one who sees the industry shrinkage?

[Mike AI]

Serge is is shrinking like my penis when I hop into a un-heated pool in January....

Of course I never had much to start off with.

Where was the Like Whoa booth? They used to have a HUGE pressence. House of cards collapse?

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 12 2003, 04:36 PM
am I the only one who sees the industry shrinkage?
What were the "numbers" of people there? It seemed more to me than usual - but then again, I was under the influence of Tylenol Sinus meds and "The Other White Russian" during most of the trip. :awinky:

One thing I DID notice was how many TGP people were there. They were merely a blip on the radar a couple of years ago, but now they seemed to eclipse the free site/pay site/link list etc. folks in sheer numbers :zoinks:

Or did you mean shrinkage as in George Costanza's "shrinkage"? In THAT case, I agree - but you guys ARE getting older :moon:

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 12 2003, 03:41 PM
Serge is is shrinking like my penis when I hop into a un-heated pool in January....

Of course I never had much to start off with.

Where was the Like Whoa booth? They used to have a HUGE pressence. House of cards collapse?
it was right next to Babenet booth, IGallery Booth and few other MIA boothes
;-))

[Winetalk.com]

anotyher quite noticable MIA's...
AMATEURS from the old days..
no Ro and Pushrod,
no Jim and Vickie,
no Dan and Carol Cox,
no Janie and Stephen....

I think the entire AMATEURS disapeared as class....

[Peaches]

Speaking of missing, did ANYONE see Nancy/Gramma? I looked for her and either she didn't come, or she was hiding from me :o

[PattyeCake*]

Originally posted by Peaches@Jan 12 2003, 12:59 PM
Speaking of missing, did ANYONE see Nancy/Gramma? I looked for her and either she didn't come, or she was hiding from me :o
Peaches sweetie, She WAS there, but I never saw her either :(

methinks she was in Hiding with her son, daughter in law and that new grandbaby! :D

[SykkBoy]

While some are shrinking and shrivelling and maybe even drying up and blowing away, there are some smaller programs that see this as an opportunity to grow.

We've always prided ourselves on being a small, totally niche, more "non-webmaster" friendly program...but sicne we have very little overhead, we can live on table crumbs of others...their shrinking margins are a huge step up for us. Some see disaster, others see opportunity...my uncle who dabbles in the markets is what he calls a Misery Eater...he loves to see disaster and capitalize on it by going opposite of everyone else...while some see dispair and collapse, he sees opportunity. I'm glad I inherited that trait from him and not his trait of sticking his penis in the asses of 18 year old men (not that there is anyhing wrong with that trait) ;))))


You have to admit, chaos is exciting (when it's not your chaos)



Last edited by SykkBoy at Jan 12 2003, 04:58 PM

[Winetalk.com]

Sykk,
even webmaster hairs get shorter and shorter...at least that what somebody said about you
;-)))

[sextoyking]

Sykk,

your on target dude. As this economy stays bad until at least 4th qu. 2003 or in the beg. of 2004 I think there will be alot of shakeup in our industry and others.

for those of us who have been around for some time, this is good news in a way, not just that companies might leave adult, but that it makes us think and come up with new ideas / products to sell, promote, get the surfer (our customer) buying a little more.

Well if Sykk cut his hair, I am surprised :))

but seriously, gotta have shorter hair now, big brother and the republicans in control don't like us hippies :)

Hilliary in 2008, wouldn't give a shit about adult net, porn, etc.

[Winetalk.com]

Todd, yes she will...internet porn her husband's VP had invented,
has destroyed her marriage
;-))

I wanna see your face when your democratic friends come for YOU!
;-))

THIS pic will be PRICELESS!
;-)))

..especially if the last name of DA happens to be Rabinowitz
;-)))

[sextoyking]

Fucking Jewish DA's Serge :)

I know this sucks to say it, but I feel that if a war / looking for terrorist wasn't going on right now in the Bush Admin. I would be willing to bet that
that Ashcroft would be working more and more on the adult / porn side of things.

As it is they are too busy with military issues right now i guess.

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by Peaches@Jan 12 2003, 03:44 PM
One thing I DID notice was how many TGP people were there. They were merely a blip on the radar a couple of years ago, but now they seemed to eclipse the free site/pay site/link list etc. folks in sheer numbers :zoinks:

This much is predictable, several factors have brought it about. First off the dotcom bubble burst produced a lot of empty racks in a lot of data centers. Pipe and servers have gotten pretty cheap. Meanwhile the search engines are migrating to paid listings and becoming more challenging to work effectively than ever before.

TGPs have become the easiest target for traffic....such as it is. So not only do you have all of the newbies playing the TGP game, but a larger and larger percentage of hobbyists who previously played free sites, link lists, etc.

Thus you're seeing the pressure in the middle tiers of the business. The big guys are ok, they've made their money, and a good warchest of cash is the best way to weather any storm. The little guys are ok because many of them are just in for beer money anyway. Many of the ones who are doing it as their real job dont have house payments, kids or worry about such trivial things as retirement investing, etc.

It's the guys in the middle who are trying to make payroll for themselves and maybe a handful of employees that are really getting squeezed because the margins are pretty thin on TGP traffic even if you're good at it. And many of the other wells for traffic have somewhat dried up.

[DrGuile]

I heard from most people that this was one of the biggest Vegas show.


so, no.


Now if your question was: "Are me and my old time friends starting to fall out of the picture?"

than yes, gramps :nyanya:

[originalheather]

If my tag says I'm about to say something moronic, it's probably true.

I not only disappeared from the boards for 18 months, I also left the industry for the most part. I still run my site, but the time I spent in bed (grin) and recovering my health have left me a newbie all over again.

I never had any luck with TGP traffic, including TGPII, it was disastrous. I've been hearing that top lists are coming back, has that been true in anyone's experience?

I'm sitting on an incredible site that has no traffic.

Dabbling in the SE's earlier in the year with an acknowledged expert in the field (whom I do not blame) left me with a high 4 figure expenditure and zip in results.

What are people doing now to generate traffic? Aside from putting my site into a major program, which I hope to do shortly, is there anything I could be doing?

From what I saw at the show, a lot of the new people that are doing well are spamming..apart from that, any suggestions?

One major person here told me in ICQ that he doubts he's getting 20K hits a day..I know this guy used to do 200K..am I correct in assuming that we're all pretty much in the same boat here and it's just a matter of how big we were before the economy went south?

[SykkBoy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 12 2003, 05:24 PM
Sykk,
even webmaster hairs get shorter and shorter...at least that what somebody said about you
;-)))
hahaha, yup
my hair got shorter as did Wizzo's, Mark Tiarra's, Green Guy's, Vick's...all our hair is shrinking...

ah, the chaos of a hair salon/barber shop.......you should have seen the chaos when I was openly admiring the perky young breasts hanging over me when I was having all the hair cut off....


I think my dick may be shrinking too, but as long as my bank account is growing, I don't really care...I'll just buy some love from someone at the office ;)))

[originalheather]

I'll just buy some love from someone at the office ;)))


Hahaha...shades of the Bradley :P

Mark Tiarra's

Now that was an extreme change. I didn't even know him!

I think my dick may be shrinking too

Another candidate for the Shaw Camp :P

[kath]

So much has changed within the industry - just by comparing last year to this. When we look back at the "Genesis Days" when things got started - we can see the patterns as they emerge and will realize that this is just another stage in our development. Already we can see the evolutionary process hit everyone - all the way from the big, big, big guy down to the little newbie dudes. Even though things are thinning out AND are getting tougher - I still think it's a good thing. Too many newbies were coming in asking for "money making map in a box" and were getting it. It used to be you could throw up a crappy site using Front Page and make a buck. Now - it's much harder to make that buck on the net and only the tough will survive.

It's what I've been saying all along - network with other successful or hard-working webmasters whenever possible, work even harder than you've ever worked before, never give up, never give in - and most of all: don't be afraid to try new things. Serge preached years ago that webmasters need to think "out of the box" and those who listened to him have gone on to try many new things, making their own successes as they paved the road toward new options for us all.

Survival of the fittest. This industry is still in its baby-hood. We've got many more millions to make. But we need to be more creative and work hard once again to get there.

Those who want to sit back and bitch - go ahead. Nice knowin' ya.
Those who want to work hard and be here to tell the tale - I'll see you at the next show. :)

I think 2003 will be a landmark year for comings and goings of industry "big names" and businesses. Those who can hang tough and weather the storm will reap the benefits in the end. It's not over folks - it's just changing.

[Hooper]

I reallly think everything is industry and most industries are cyclical. With the exception of a few *really* high barrier to entry industries (e.g. cars, movie studios, electric corps etc..) i think you constantly see a flux of new industry leaders.

Did anybody else read the post a few weeks ago where fantasyman literally said that he had his time to shine and he enjoyed it... but that now it's time for a newer younger group to dominate?

I just find it interesting. What is also interesting for me is the perspectives of people... most of ya'll on this board were making money hand over fist in 96-99 when margins were huge and surfers were suckers... whereas guys like us werent making a dime then because in all likelihood we werent even in the biz yet..

whereas newer sponsors see 1000 joins a day, get excited and make it with generous margins in comparison to most industries... while old-timers see it and think "oh fuck, only 1000 joins a day? the sky is falling" and because they were used to and built around exorbitant margins.. they have a hard time making money with their old business models...

just my :hic: :hic:

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Hell Puppy@Jan 12 2003, 07:47 PM
It's the guys in the middle who are trying to make payroll for themselves and maybe a handful of employees that are really getting squeezed because the margins are pretty thin on TGP traffic even if you're good at it. And many of the other wells for traffic have somewhat dried up.
Yep, speaking as a middle person, I can tell you the pain is there and the traffic is not :cryin: For the first time in 5+ years I'm looking at working TGP's.....AND looking outside the industry as far as "extra" cash, as I'm probably attempting to get on the TGP boat after it's sailed. :headwall:

[Winetalk.com]

Hooper,
VERY nice observations, indeed...

as we say in Russia
"One says he is poor because his soup is weak,
another says he is poor because his diamonds are to small"
;-))

I think you nailed "FantasyMan" industry tendencies to the "T"

[Rolo]

Regarding access to free porn I feel I need to quote "Die Hard":

Hans: You ask for miracles, Theo, I give you the F.B.I. :zoinks:

[Carrie]

I've seen many people saying that this Internext was the largest (as in terms of attendance) they've ever seen.
So my question is, were these all new webmasters, or were they webmasters that have been in the biz for a while but have never attended a convention?

As for things shrinking or going away... you guys were saying the same things back in '99. I've been through the old Condom archives and the talk then was exactly like it is now... not enough traffic, too many newbies who don't know what they're doing, prediction of a lot of people going out of business...

I honestly think this business is about perseverance and adaptation. Be strong and evolve, or die.

[SykkBoy]

TGP's are a tougher game these days as well.
I remember back in '99 when a good Hun listing and a couple Buffet family listings were good for 30-40 joins, now it's tougher...more people who have no clue how to make money from the traffic degarding the overall quality.

The way we used to make money on TGPs: submit a nice series gallery, use highly descriptive text links and never show hardcore...

now we have guys giving away movies...

For anyone having problems with TGP's, we've recently opened (but not yet officially announced) http://www.tgpgrunts.com We'll have more (better) samples up shortly. Scooter and I are working on some other designs and layouts. We've discovered that turning your TGP gallery into a full page ad is better than just slopping together a bunch of pictures and a couple banners/text links. This is the common trend with galleries, fpa's and not the same 5 pics, banner, 5 pics, banner format that causes a surfer to simply ignore the banners/ads.

I've noticed a lot more sponsors providing hosted galleries. If done correctly these can be more profitable for the sponsor (they have better control voer the advertising message and content) they are making it even harder for the TGP submitter as the TGP owners are often using these hosted galleries and listing them higher than the submittals.

-- PS, we also provide hosted gallery templates ;))

[Mike AI]

Hoop, I agree with Serge - you are very right, it comes back to theory of relativity - and perspective.

We are working harder then ever for the same amount of $$$. Some companies are having a hard time adjusting. I know we have been looking at ways to cut costs to help our bottom line.

We are always adjusting things, it is impossible to do business like we used to in the old days.

You have to evolve or you will die out!

[Rolo]

SykkBoy - I think you are right regarding TGP submitters getting cut out - there will be less need for them soon.... however I also think that tgps/link list/se etc. will start to loose quality traffic, when paysites get better at networking. The "broad" signup cross selling provided by some processors are just the begining of new ways for paysites to keep more business to themself.

I think alot of companies are getting smaller returns compare to last year, and the year before etc.... and as my old business teacher told me: "If a company isn´t growing, then its dying!"
Only real big companies, like General Motors, can blame the economy if their sales are less than last year. All small companies still have market share to conquer from their competition - even when the economy is bad...

[Hell Puppy]

Exactly, you've gotta pay attention to trends and be ready to exploit new opportunities early before all of the copycats pile on and oversaturate the market. Those who are consistently creative and stay in touch with the psychology with the surfer will always be fine. The cream always rises.

My own business looks radically different than it did in 2001 which in turn looked different from 1999 and so on. If you try to coast, your revenue will shrink.

I haven't met anyone in the last year or so who has said they're working less and making more money though. Usually quite the opposite. It's just business though....you adapt or die.

[sharky]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 12 2003, 09:57 PM
We are working harder then ever for the same amount of $$$. Some companies are having a hard time adjusting. I know we have been looking at ways to cut costs to help our bottom line.

We are always adjusting things, it is impossible to do business like we used to in the old days.

You have to evolve or you will die out!
You can say that all again!

[Winetalk.com]

HellPuppy,
when my profit margins started to shrink at the mid 1999,
I increased shave factor...

is there any room TODAY to increase webmaster' shave?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 12 2003, 09:27 PM
As for things shrinking or going away... you guys were saying the same things back in '99. I've been through the old Condom archives and the talk then was exactly like it is now... not enough traffic, too many newbies who don't know what they're doing, prediction of a lot of people going out of business...

I honestly think this business is about perseverance and adaptation. Be strong and evolve, or die.
Carry....I dunno what you were doing in 1999,
but unfortunatelly our prediction came true,
on a BIG and on a small scale,
too bad you can't see it and give us old hogs credit.

[*KK*]

As far as the number of booths, I would say this one was the biggest. As far as the show floor space, I'd say it's not shrinking, unlike some shows.

As to the number of attendees, while the floor stays the same, the number of booths, albeit smaller, grows, the number of people total is down. Down from Miami and down from the last two years in Vegas. Unless of course people are buying passes and then not using them.

Ideas? Innovation? Its not dead. 3 conversations I had at this show made me realize just how alive it is. And just how forethinking it can be.

There are still things to get excited about. Theu aren't exit consoles, scrubbing or how much mail you get thru tho.

[kath]

Originally posted by *KK*@Jan 12 2003, 08:11 PM
Ideas? Innovation? Its not dead. (snip) There are still things to get excited about.

I have to agree with you there KK - plenty of things to get excited about and lots of room to grow. I just think that there will be a definite thinning out of a lot of folks who are currently working the biz. You can already spot the ones who refuse to change - better take their names down, cuz they won't be around for long.

But as far as new ideas - big horizons and gold in them thar hills - yup, it's still there. This is still one of the most exciting industries in the world. We ain't seen nuthin' yet! :nyanya:

[Plugger]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 12 2003, 12:50 PM
anotyher quite noticable MIA's...
AMATEURS from the old days..
no Ro and Pushrod,
no Jim and Vickie,
no Dan and Carol Cox,
no Janie and Stephen....

I think the entire AMATEURS disapeared as class....
I do not think the "amateurs" were MIA. I did not have an "ear ache" or any other excuse not to show up; I was there. Did anyone go to the Ultimate Party 2003 (www.ultimateparty2003.com)? We were there in force!

Just take a look at www.amateurcamhouse.com, www.pickapicka.com, www.bustyrachel.com.

I honestly think this business is about perseverance and adaptation. Be strong and evolve, or die.

Enough said . . .

[Carrie]

Serge I most definitely give you "old hogs" (lol) credit!
You're still here, aren't you?
And that's my point exactly. You adapted, you persevered, you're still here making money.
Granted from what I gather it's nowhere as easy to make the money now as it was back then, but you're still doing it... and I hope that 5 years from now I'll have the same perseverance that you guys did.

Back in '97 I considered building porn sites. Morals got in my way. ;)
I was an idiot!
The people that amaze me are the ones who have been away for a year, two years, or more... and they're stumped at how to get traffic or why they're not getting the signups they used to get. I see posts all of the time on TNB from someone who is coming back to the biz after a long absence and they are completely lost because nothing works like it used to. Why would they expect it to?

I was going to go into a long ramble about things I see that just keep hurting us and things we can and can't do to correct it, but it was so long I just cut it off. I'm sure everyone has their own ideas, it's just getting a majority of the big players to agree enough to risk testing it. If we could get some big people to test something and report back that it's going well, then more would pile on... it's just getting those people to risk it in the first place.

I just love this guy... :cdance:

[Hell Puppy]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 12 2003, 10:25 PM
HellPuppy,
when my profit margins started to shrink at the mid 1999,
I increased shave factor...

is there any room TODAY to increase webmaster' shave?
Serge,

There's absolutely no doubt that pumping up the shave to make the numbers work is a practice that is alive and well.

And as I've been saying for years, dont count stats, count the checks. I dont care what the formula for payout is or whether it's shaved or not, I send a given amount of a certain type of traffic and get $X in return. Whichever sponsor makes the value of that $X the greatest gets the traffic.

Unfortunately the performance changes so rapidly right now that I'm convinced many are changing the shave dynamically...if not randomly. A program may convert well for one two week period and then convert for shit the next even though the tour, the processor and the traffic are all consistent. It's almost like chasing a hot stock, prior performance is not necessarily an indication of future results!

As for room to shave more, that depends on the program. There are definitely some out there shaving everyone smooth as a baby's ass already IMO. There's a point there where it makes no financial sense to send any traffic to a program, and you're better served to build your own paysites to feed your traffic to.

But hey, there'll always be a couple of thousand newbies willing to send any large program tons of TGP traffic from The Hun no matter what. You just end up with a broth with lots of water in your soup and not a lot of meat!

[cj]

Originally posted by originalheather@Jan 12 2003, 06:58 PM
What are people doing now to generate traffic? Aside from putting my site into a major program, which I hope to do shortly, is there anything I could be doing?

From what I saw at the show, a lot of the new people that are doing well are spamming..apart from that, any suggestions?

yep!

icq me 3422430
i have something that you will be interested in ... especially if you are looking for traffic and/or webmasters to send traffic ;-)


:awinky:

[originalheather]

Your icq # is wrong, hon, mine's in my profile. Thanks :)

[Carrie]

Does anyone see open TGP submissions fading away until they're nonexistent? With the amount of cheaters out there, most TGPs with traffic are switching to partner-only submissions, gallery pools, sponsor-hosted galleries or revshare gallery programs (like Diabolical Galleries).

There's probably at least a dozen new TGPs opening up every day with webmasters using sponsor-hosted galleries (or Choker's trading system). Will this lessen the impact of TGPs as a whole?
Without cheaters and fly-by-night submitters who make 50-pic all-hardcore galleries, will the industry finally slow down from its crazed "give away the money shots" runaway train?

Speaking of giving away money shots, will sponsors ever put their thinking caps back on and stop handing out free content sets with hardcore in them? I'm not saying use ugly censor circles or artsy stars to cover the action, I'm saying just don't put them in the set whatsoever. If you give it to the webmaster, he'll use it - plain and simple. Joe Surfer gets the whole kit and caboodle, from the tease all the way to the cum shot... then he closes his browser and goes to clean up. No reason for him to join your paysite, he's finished for the evening. You want to blame TGP gallery-makers or free site makers for the glut of free hardcore on the net? Move your finger a little to the left and point it at the people *giving* them this content - the sponsors. When you give a webmaster content, you're telling the webmaster that this type of content should be free. You devalue it. That type of content should only be seen if someone pays for it (both the webmaster and the surfer!) If the webmaster had to *pay* to put those money shots on his galleries, he'd put more of a value on it, and either wouldn't do it, or would put it behind an AVS script where he'd make his money back.
Are sponsors going to regain their senses?

Visa fees and regulations (you must be incorporated in the US, which means paying taxes in the US, blah blah) shook things up enough that it's still affecting people. Big programs got bigger by acquiring small ones, small programs turned off completely or switched to AVS (lots of amateurs simply moved over to AVS). This raises the "bar of entry" to building a paysite, which is a good thing. But we still haven't seen the full effects all of this is going to take, and we won't until April 15th when it comes time for all of these new US-based businesses to figure out how the hell to pay taxes. Do you think more small programs will disappear (or go AVS) after tax time hits? Do you think iBill is going to survive the huge hit it's taken? Do you think token systems will make a viable comeback?

Spam - egads. The amount of spam I get has tripled at least this past year. It's gotten so bad for my hosting clients and I that I am seriously considering dropping Yahoo and Hotmail into my denied email filters. I definitely see a major crack-down of spam coming *soon*. All it's going to take is one mother whose child has seen a double-penetration image in his HTML email to sue her major ISP for not doing enough to filter the legitimate email as part of the service they're providing to her, and the courts are involved. The smart folks are already using double opt-in mailing lists, but even those will become risky eventually.
Will a crackdown on spam be a good thing or a bad thing for the industry?

Reality sites... the big sponsors' attempt at getting a piece of the amateur's pie. Huge in 2002... still as big in 2003? Or will more sponsors "absorb" single-girl amateur sites (a-la Lightspeed with Nina and Tawny)... or both?

Amateurs make a killing selling their own products... worn panties, videotapes of themselves, digital movies of themselves on CD, exclusive content CDs. Will an innovative company step up and help them market these things (videos, not used panties) to the brick and mortar stores?

Brick and mortar adult stores... where do you see them in a year? In five years? Still as strong as ever, or extinct as everyone moves on-line?

The original topic was conventions... there's some type of webmaster gathering every month at least. Will heavy-hitters like Internext give way to smaller conventions like Cybernet Expo or even smaller, more training-based events like AWE? Will AVN drop back to one show per year?

[*KK*]

cj definitely has something that quite a few people will want to look into -- it's an excellent idea for small to mid size site owners to capitalize on some Aussie brainpower!

Your rant on spam is funny Carrie, before I went to bed tonite (yes I know it's still nite, I slept two hours and bing! it was like time to go play blackjack, my body's having trouble realizing where it is) I told someone -- this year everyone will have their own resource board, their own tgp and their own mailer program ;)

Of course that also means that people will be dropping off some other ideas that have worked for awhile, might be time to do a Nick and start looking at how to take the market thinning and make it work for you...

[Almighty Colin]

Our industry is in some aspects analagous to the formation of the radio, airline, electric utilities and motor vehicles industries. All had boom/bust consolidation phases. All had periods where the quick-to-market made tons of cash quickly. All had periods where the early-to-market were shaken out. In the radio industry 27 of the first 48 "first radio stations in their state to market" were our of business half a decade later. We've probably done a little better. Many people have one or more of these historical analogies in mind when they discuss the state of the industry. Railroad is another good example.

Some differences are the prevalence of the beer-money warriors, the lack of barriers to entry, and the lack of governmental influence and regulation. (The government won't bail us out and subsidize us).

Tropixxx and XPics have come and gone as surely as Pan Am and Eastern Airlines did. Others will too. Nothing bad has happened though. This is completely normal and exactly what many of us expected.

Earlier, it was said that you have to work harder today to make the same amount of money. This reminds me of a quote by the Red Queen in Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass". The quote is ubiquitious in pop-science books today and is used to illustrate the evolutionary arms race. The Red Queen said "in this place it takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place."

The "good old days" weren't really that good. It is a selective group of webmasters that remember them; the ones that survived. There were hundreds of webmasters on the boards five years ago that didn't understand the industry then and never did catch on. Remember the "I have a great logo. Why don't I make any money?" posts. How about the many dozens, probably hundreds, of webmasters that said "I'm starting a link site and will be bigger than Persian Kitty"?

Some of the older webmasters that left the industry and then come back do run into trouble. Their skill sets matched well with the uneven playing fields of yesterday but don't allow for any differentiation on today's internet porn gridiron.

Some of the older webmasters that once did well are not doing as well today. They have to reinvent themselves or maybe even take jobs working for large companies and desire to learn enough from these jobs to maybe venture out once again. I see some webmasters reiventing themselves and doing well and others struggling. Some go into periods of discovery and self-discovery and then re-emerge with new breath.

The sky is never falling and you would think Chicken Little would retire by now. How long before she comes and tries to scare us back into the field?

All is normal.
All is well.



Last edited by Colin at Jan 13 2003, 08:28 AM

[Winetalk.com]

so, Colin, you do not believe in vertical integration?

[Almighty Colin]

I didn't learn anything new as far as the state of the industry while in Vegas. Some people were there, some weren't. There were a few noteable missing parties but I heard good explanations
from a few as to why they weren't and think it probably does not indicate any industry-wide trend.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 13 2003, 08:30 AM
so, Colin, you do not believe in vertical integration?
I'm a huge proponent of vertical integration - on an case-by-case basis.

Where did THAT come from?

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by Colin+Jan 13 2003, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Colin @ Jan 13 2003, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Serge_Oprano@Jan 13 2003, 08:30 AM
so, Colin, you do not believe in vertical integration?
I'm a huge proponent of vertical integration - on an case-by-case basis.

Where did THAT come from?[/b][/quote]
case by case???

I thought it's a TREND, therefore "case by case" doesn't apply...
;-)

[Almighty Colin]

Sure it's a trend.

But sometimes outsourcing is preferable to integration. Not everyone wants to cut their own checks. I wrote the following in 1999.

- From http://www.buildinganempire.com/1999.html

---------------------------

Outsourcing

Probably anything that you think of can and has been contracted out including wartime soldiers (mercenaries).

One alternative to hiring an employee to perform a certain task is to contract the job out. It might be something as small as paying a cleaning service that would save you or one of your employees a considerable amount of time. You can outsource graphics design, programming, system administrator, payroll, bookkeeping, and almost anything else you can think of. You can hire girls to go to shows wearing your company shirts and saying that they work for you.

The core idea is that you need to focus on what makes you money and grows your company rather than on peripheral issues. The decision to outsource something can include many factors. We would never outsource programming, for example, as it would involve a security risk - allowing someone access to our servers, proprietary programs, and ideas. If one is on a tight budget, having everyone chip in every once in a while to clean the office might be a better idea than having a cleaning service come in. Currently, we have about 1000 square feet of office space and clean the office ourselves. In two weeks we move to a 3000 square foot office and will undoubtebly pay a cleaning service at that point.

I know one webmaster that outsources all his graphics work and always to the same guy. Someone who is both reliable and does excellent work. He prefers this to the alternative of having a full time graphics artist which would include not only aying him or her a constant year-long salary but having to create enough projects to keep a graphics artist busy 2000 hours a year - a problem in and of itself.

If you do have a programming job there are probably temporary services in your area where you can hire someone on a day to day basis and might even find someone you'd like to hire on a full time basis. Like I said, we ourselves would never do it but maybe security isn't such an issue with you.

You might also hire a consultant to see how you can streamline your business' operation or a phase of your business operation.

If you run a webmaster program and are cutting the checks yourself I know it can be quite a hassle. There was one program that ran into a lot of problems doing this - they had so many webmasters in their program so quickly that they were not able to keep up and the checks kept getting sent out late. You can call ADP payroll services and they will send all your webmaster checks out for you for (I think it's) about $1.50 a check. Call them and they will send a very friendly rep out to you and set it all up. You can fax them the info once a week or 2 weeks or whatever your pay period is.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Jan 12 2003, 04:50 PM
anotyher quite noticable MIA's...
AMATEURS from the old days..
no Ro and Pushrod,
no Jim and Vickie,
no Dan and Carol Cox,
no Janie and Stephen....

I think the entire AMATEURS disapeared as class....
oh well. :rolleyes:

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 12 2003, 10:57 PM
Hoop, I agree with Serge - you are very right, it comes back to theory of relativity - and perspective.

We are working harder then ever for the same amount of $$$. Some companies are having a hard time adjusting. I know we have been looking at ways to cut costs to help our bottom line.

We are always adjusting things, it is impossible to do business like we used to in the old days.

You have to evolve or you will die out!
hmmm yes. Refer to my post above. :bwave:

[LittleC]

hehehe..

yeah show floor was empty because ME was not there ::)) haha

anyway, I agree with Serge industry is shrinking!

I make more money now than 5 years ago in volume but, we work harder for the money nowdays...

guess all the money has been washed into legal activities::))

maybe thats why show floors are empty?? boothprices are crazy now days and much work......


evil grin***:grrr:


btw: did you got married Serge? that would be the reason for me to cum to Vegas!!!

[Winetalk.com]

LittleC,
to bad you couldn't make it to Vegas,
I think it would have been SUPER cool if YOU could give the bride away
;-)))

[Evil Chris]

I'm predicting booth prices will drop significantly this year Little C...
There were a handful of notable no shows for booths at this show, and many more no-shows to come, so AVN won't have any choice but to bring the prices down.

This all could become good news for Fay Sharp. :awinky:

[MikeFold]

Originally posted by LittleC@Jan 13 2003, 09:29 AM
hehehe..
yeah show floor was empty because ME was not there ::)) haha
anyway, I agree with Serge industry is shrinking!
I make more money now than 5 years ago in volume but, we work harder for the money nowdays...

guess all the money has been washed into legal activities::))

maybe thats why show floors are empty?? boothprices are crazy now days and much work......


evil grin***:grrr:


btw: did you got married Serge? that would be the reason for me to cum to Vegas!!!
I noticed you weren't there Little C....

and your analogy is pretty accurate
B)
what scares me though, is you agreeing with Sergey
hahahahahahaha&copy

[Mike AI]

IS AVN really going to lower prices? I cannot see that happening....

They are one greedy group, and what is really fucked up about it - is their service SUCKS ASS. So not only do they over charge, but they also nickel & Dime you to death, then they never deliver what they promise, and make things way to difficult.... What I am amazed at is how THEY stay in business....


There needs to be some major competition for them....

[Almighty Colin]

Mike (AI),

How do you REALLY feel?

[Carrie]

Colin I completely agree with you about there coming a time when you may need to outsource. Wearing all of the hats is empowering and ensures that you *can* take over a task if need be, but it can also hamper the growth of your business because one person can only do so much.

Here's a question... if you guys are all working harder, what are you doing now that you weren't doing in '97?
If the growth of your business is the reason for you working harder, that's to be expected. There's more to be done when running an affiliate program than there is to be done when you're just an affiliate.
But if you're doing the *same* thing that you were in '97 (which I doubt any of you guys are) and working harder now to make the same amount of money... then perhaps it's time to hang around with some fresh blood who doesn't do things the same way your "network" of contacts do. Perhaps you've been stuck in a rut too long and need a fresh perspective or some ideas.

Speaking of which - Colin, you said you didn't hear any new ideas this convention, but KK said she did. Did you hang around with any new people and give them a significant amount of time to discuss things with you, or did you hang out with the same folks you usually do and just give a brief "hi" to everyone else?

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 13 2003, 11:51 AM
Speaking of which - Colin, you said you didn't hear any new ideas this convention, but KK said she did. Did you hang around with any new people and give them a significant amount of time to discuss things with you, or did you hang out with the same folks you usually do and just give a brief "hi" to everyone else?
I don't think I said that. *confused look*

I DID hear some new ideas. Pretty good ones. From old-timers, no less.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 13 2003, 11:51 AM
Here's a question... if you guys are all working harder, what are you doing now that you weren't doing in '97?

Carrie,

I don't think most of us are really working harder. The boards get all quiet on the weekends now but many of us used to work weekends and nights. The business is more 9-5 now than it ever was.

I think the difference was that if you worked twice as many hours in 1996 you made twice as much money - because there was so much room for expansion, because we were starting from comparatively nothing and because the industry itself was in such a massive growth stage it was fairly common to have months where one made twice as much money as the month before. More work meant lots more money.

[Almighty Colin]

The thing about new ideas is that almost all of them fail. The Holy Triumverate of a new idea is
the idea itself, it's execution, and it's acceptance. After getting an idea past the conceptual drawing board, the idea still has to be effectively brought to market. After that, it still needs acceptance by either or both surfer and webmaster. Most new ideas aren't good to start with and will still fail after all that.

If I were a newer webmaster I would consider partnering with an established industry entity
in order to promote the "next big thing-amabob" and to obtain enough resources to keep it alive.

[Billy]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 13 2003, 11:32 AM
IS AVN really going to lower prices? I cannot see that happening....

They are one greedy group, and what is really fucked up about it - is their service SUCKS ASS. So not only do they over charge, but they also nickel & Dime you to death, then they never deliver what they promise, and make things way to difficult.... What I am amazed at is how THEY stay in business....


There needs to be some major competition for them....
Same time, different locatoin, but a show that will make a difference ?

Humm.. anybody else up for that ??

Inter who ?

[Nickatilynx]

From what I saw at the show, a lot of the new people that are doing well are spamming..apart from that, any suggestions?

errr don't waste your efforts readers.

There is no money in that! :)

[Carrie]

Billy, I wrote and asked Missy at AVN if the aisles were going to be wider in florida, if there would be better accommodations for smokers (I call that sun-baked patio the Smoker's Broil), and if there would be any other significant changes/improvements to the show from last year.

She just got back to me after returning from Internext/AVN and crushed my hopes:
"There aren't any significant changes to the show in Florida. Aisles will
remain the same and because the facility is non-smoking...everyone will have to smoke outside."

:(

Like I said in Sharpie's Cybernet thread - same mistakes, just on a smaller scale.

[Carrie]

Colin, you're right, my apologies.
I was referring to this line that you wrote: "I didn't learn anything new as far as the state of the industry while in Vegas. "

When remembering it and replying, what I remembered was the "I didn't learn anything new", not the "as far as the state of the industry".

Sorry, my bad!

[*KK*]

Originally posted by Colin@Jan 13 2003, 08:58 AM

I DID hear some new ideas. Pretty good ones. From old-timers, no less.
Bingo Colin... not sure how I missed seeing you but we are in complete agreement on this point.

[LittleC]

Serge, lol - yes I would have especially "shaved my moustache" for that purpose haha


Booths: prices dropping? will that get new webmasters to the show?

Are there any new webmasters?

The days of easy money is gone so, that leaves 2 kinds of people in our bizz:

the hard workers & crooks


Noticed a lot of "fake webmasters" using their lists of creditcards into our systems....funny thing should be something for a new subject...

We always here about sponsors shaving while there is also a BIG problem in our bizz!!! Fake WM with huge lists of stolen creditCards!!!

who solves this problem gets the big buck !!!

Who is first to collect?


:grrr:

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by *KK*+Jan 13 2003, 01:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (*KK* @ Jan 13 2003, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Colin@Jan 13 2003, 08:58 AM

I DID hear some new ideas. Pretty good ones. From old-timers, no less.
Bingo Colin... not sure how I missed seeing you but we are in complete agreement on this point.[/b][/quote]
I'm not sure how either. :blink:

Let's not let it happen ever again.

[Hooper]

AVN dropping prices? I doubt it. What makes a booth costly has nothing really to do with AVN.. what do they charge.. like 2500 per 10x10.. so in order to have the biggest space on the floor is only 10k... what IS expensive are the hotel charges for items such as internet and carpet rentals.

As well a booth itself physically can easily cost 200k... and the man/womanpower to run a booth effectively and throw a party also is definitely more than anything AVN related.

In the end (for example) we decided against having a booth because it simply wasnt "profitable" last time. Spend 20k to have a little booth and give away a lot of t-shirts.. then take that same 20k and spend it on webmaster advertising on boards and resources along with perhaps a party co-sponsorship and it makes money.

My point is only that avn is a very tiny cost in the grand scheme of booths imho.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by LittleC@Jan 13 2003, 01:18 PM
Are there any new webmasters?


!



Last edited by Colin at Jan 13 2003, 01:22 PM

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Hooper@Jan 13 2003, 01:21 PM
AVN dropping prices? I doubt it. What makes a booth costly has nothing really to do with AVN.. what do they charge.. like 2500 per 10x10.. so in order to have the biggest space on the floor is only 10k... what IS expensive are the hotel charges for items such as internet and carpet rentals.

As well a booth itself physically can easily cost 200k... and the man/womanpower to run a booth effectively and throw a party also is definitely more than anything AVN related.

In the end (for example) we decided against having a booth because it simply wasnt "profitable" last time. Spend 20k to have a little booth and give away a lot of t-shirts.. then take that same 20k and spend it on webmaster advertising on boards and resources along with perhaps a party co-sponsorship and it makes money.

My point is only that avn is a very tiny cost in the grand scheme of booths imho.
Hooper,

I have heard a fair number of programs state the same thing - that the booths are not profitable for them. Bottom line.

Good to see you at the show. I'll call you in a few days re: what we discussed.

[LittleC]

I ment to say: are there any webmasters visiting SHOWS !!!

sorry my mistake :P

[Peaches]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 13 2003, 02:05 PM
and because the facility is non-smoking...everyone will have to smoke outside."

Florida has recently passed even stricter non-smoking laws. I really didn't pay attention to them since I don't live in FL and I don't smoke :awinky: , but I doubt ANYONE has any ability to allow smoking within a venue. :(

[Carrie]

I'm not so sure about that. Since this is essentially a *private* event and not open to the public, couldn't we determine our own smoking rules?
If the hotel itself has proclaimed it to be a non-smoking venue (as I believe it has), that's one thing, but adhering to a "no smoking in public venues" law is another matter entirely. Then it comes down to whether it's public or private.

[Hooper]

I live in Austin, TX and i think we're 2nd in smoking laws only to San Francisco Peaches.. no restaurant can have any smoking in it at before certain hours and they require seperate ventilation systems etc..etc.... and to boot the rules are getting stricter.. i think there is no smoking within 25 feet of the entrance to a public building.. no smoking anywhere in the austin airport... etc..etc.. In fact I am seeing a trend of bars that dont even allow smoking!

When I smoked (cigars dont count ;-) I hated the segregation of smokers but I quit a few years ago... and now I have to admit that i LOVE not smelling cigarettes.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Billy@Jan 13 2003, 12:22 PM
Same time, different locatoin, but a show that will make a difference ?
Humm.. anybody else up for that ??
Inter who ?
Rather than trying to start a new show, why not work with a current show that has a good rep and is willing to make changes and see how they work?
Sharpie's Cybernet Expo immediately comes to mind. She's currently looking for suggestions/ideas/feedback on time/place of venue, how to structure it, as well as if it's even worth it to have one with all of the webmaster parties/events that have appeared.

[kath]

Originally posted by Peaches@Jan 13 2003, 10:30 AM
Florida has recently passed even stricter non-smoking laws. I really didn't pay attention to them since I don't live in FL and I don't smoke :awinky: , but I doubt ANYONE has any ability to allow smoking within a venue. :(
Very true - this is a problem that I had when I was doing scheduling for the AWE locations (in another life - lol). And it wasn't always just the state or local laws - sometimes it was hotel policy. What are you gonna do? I mean - even within the same hotel chain, each individual hotel had it's own rules/restrictions re: smoking, the types of banners that could be hung, the types of AV equipment that could be used - it was a mess.

Unfortunately - webmasters seem to be the biggest group of smokers so perhaps the convention planners need to look more at what areas/chains are smoker-friendly and plan the shows around that. I know a LOT of people said they missed out on much of the AWE info in the first year that was given out in the workshops because they had to take smoke breaks. By the 2nd full year we did smoke breaks between workshops/seminars, but you really can't do that with an expo/exhibit hall.

It's very frustrating indeed - ahhhh for the good old days when wearing a seatbelt wasn't enforced by law and smokers weren't treated like 2nd class citizens - or leppers. Freedom of choice man. Now those were the days...

[Winetalk.com]

Fake WM with huge lists of stolen creditCards!!!

who solves this problem gets the big buck !!!
*******************************************

I think I solved this problem for myself...
I befriended one of the sellers
;-)))

[Almighty Colin]

Pretty much every business in Florida besides bars goes no smoking July 1.

Bars-only are exempt. Combination bar/restaurants like Applebee's Bar and Grille have to go non-smoking also.

[LittleC]

you American people are soooooo funny !!!

You guys rule the world, invented sigarettes + taxes..and there is no fuckin hotel with a smoking area..

hahahaha

Solution: I can get you any hotel in amsterdam and I promise you, you can smoke whatever you want !!!

Serge, lol creative solutions must come from your russian background hehe

:grrr:

[Almighty Colin]

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE.

Please pick up your complimentary nicotine patch at the Pleasure Labs booth.

[Carrie]

And candy cigarettes to feed that "hand to mouth" habit. :D

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 13 2003, 02:33 PM
And candy cigarettes to feed that "hand to mouth" habit. :D
Better than a foot in mouth habit.

(This thread can only go downhill from here)

[Sharpie]

Originally posted by Carrie+Jan 13 2003, 01:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Jan 13 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Billy@Jan 13 2003, 12:22 PM
Same time, different locatoin, but a show that will make a difference ?
Humm.. anybody else up for that ??
Inter who ?
Rather than trying to start a new show, why not work with a current show that has a good rep and is willing to make changes and see how they work?
Sharpie's Cybernet Expo immediately comes to mind. She's currently looking for suggestions/ideas/feedback on time/place of venue, how to structure it, as well as if it's even worth it to have one with all of the webmaster parties/events that have appeared.[/b][/quote]
Kath..... That would probably just be too damn easy...... :-( Never happen - Just too many egos and too much politics.

I have set and listened to all the complaints and comments over the years and offered alternatives. I listen - then see what people do. Talk is cheap.

It all comes down that if you do not have cooperation, you just can't do things to it's potential. I try and find the middle ground...... it seems to usually be either too much or too little.

I listen - then see what people do...... Sponsors SAY 'they want newbies.... then are not happy if you have the show in a place that newbies and regular webmasters can afford??? For instance - $159 rooms that end up being $199 a night. A glass of house wine for $9 ? The food? all I can say is that I am glad I had a car, because there is nothing else in walking distance.

I listen - then see what people do...... Weather? Florida in August is a dream? Yeh, everyone bitches - but they will show up in droves...............

I listen - then see what people do...... I offer a booth that is for doing business and meeting people in a business "show 'N tell setting". - and at very reasonable hours, I might add since we do not open until 11:30. - Simple pipe and drape with tables, chairs, elec, internet for $2,500. Most do not find this ego building enough. They would rather spend the huge bucks and bitch.

I listen - then see what people do...... Everyone says they want ease of networking............... I make it easy, I put the showroom with sponsored bar and make it a gathering place. I do a hotel show, where what is usually traveling time turns into face time. Last year we even had the Penthouse lounge available for quiet and more private meetings. What still happens: Many make an appearance and then splinter off into their own little groups - and never seen again.

Sorry, all this is not very politically correct............. but, it is frustrating! I have always been open to suggestions, but can't really implemente many of them for lack of cooperation. Don't count on me to be your poster girl for 'being political correct..... been there - done that - over 60 now. Life is too short.

[LittleC]

Sharpie, of course we bitch - thats our nature - complain and blame always others!!! Human nature.

But, bizz is changing and more demanding......webmasters demand more from us...so, we demand more from the shows....it is logic I am not saying it is good or bad.

A trip cost me at least 50K - (I do not calculate my shopping, etc. lol)
I choose to spend this on other sources. development, advertisment, parties for our models here in Europe.

I also fly out people I wanna do bizz with....

For the first years , YES, shows ment a lot to me !!! I have done some great deals @ shows !!! I will never forget that. but, it is not reasonable for me anymore to spend so much money while I can earn more & invest it in better ways......

This is the truth......Besides I do miss going to the shows, see a few friends & have some fun!!!

Mike Fold for example!!! I MISS YOU MUCH !!!

and would have spend a 50k just to see Serge go on his knees for his lady hehehe.....


hehehe - I always agree with Serge hahaha

Nick - of course nobody is spamming!!! I for sure am not !!! people just never cancel with me because my emails are soooo fuckin Cool hahaha

:grrr:

[Carrie]

Sharpie, maybe it is time to let Cybernet go for a while. Perhaps a year.
I think we're gonna see a shake-up around tax time. I also think that all of these people throwing huge parties every month will either graduate quickly to needing the full "convention" experience or will drive themselves broke just as quickly.
Of course, for all the ones that go broke, you're going to have more that will jump right up in their shoes and take their place. Judging from the response I've gotten from Missy, AVN is actively planning on plowing straight ahead with their typical solution with no changes. Why should they change? Like you said, everyone complains but they keep going and keep paying through the nose.

Maybe it's just time to dump the "convention" idea all together and come up with something completely new. Dokk has done it with the Negril Net Bash and people love it, but there's still room for a more different approach. I've got an idea, I'll email ya.

[*KK*]

Carrie,
Realize that Paul makes his money by a certain formula at AVN shows -- and he does have a bit of advantage over Fay if what I have heard is true, and I think it is.

There's NO reason for him to change his strategy one bit, unless people simply either stopped exhibiting or stopped attending, and while one might happen, it will be a while coming for both to occur if they ever do.

AVN is as much in the trade show business as they are in the magazine business, and you will sometimes see them as sponsors at other events -- once again a good strategy on Pauls part since reciprocity is a cornerstone of this business...

[Carrie]

Yep, there's no reason for them to change (other than to make it better), because Internext IS the biggest show and whether people like it or not, they keep attending because everyone else is going to be there. Hell, I don't want to go to the Florida show (gripes about the layout of the show and the inept hotel staff), but I will because there will be people there that I want to see, talk to, and do business with.

It's like the big TGPs. It doesn't matter if they're hurting the industry in general, *their* pockets are getting lined and as much as people bitch, they keep submitting - so why change anything?

Change will only happen when either people stop going or something just as big comes along and threatens to take the crown.
I'm not sure there *is* anything that could come along that could rival Internext. So until then (and probably for a good long while), it's a matter of don't go and don't do business, or go and just deal with it. :(

[Plugger]

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 13 2003, 12:59 AM
Will an innovative company step up and help them [amateurs] market these things (videos, not used panties) to the brick and mortar stores?


We are working on this very thing now. A place were amateurs, or anyone really, can send in their footage, it will be edited, mastered to DVD and VHS and sold on-line and to stores.

Give us another week or so and we will be ready for a full announcement . . .

[Sabby]

Man, I WISH I had been around in 1997...

There is still plenty of money to be made online.

Congratulations on your marriage Sergey!

Sabby

[kath]

Saw an article on PCMag.com today and immediately thought of this thread. People LOVE to bitch - and this article claims that all people in the technology realm (the article is about Comdex) are masochists.

What's most interesting though is that the articles IS about Comdex - a lot of the complaints, suggestions, obstacles, concerns (about booth size, attendance, etc.) are the same things we've been talking about in this thread and on the boards for years.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,805947,00.asp

Fay - that wasn't me you quoted in that post and I agree with you. It's very frustrating to try and please everyone and not play industry politics. I'm of a mind lately that political correctness has lost it's razzle dazzle on me - I'm going to start saying what I feel regardless. I think I've kept my mouth shut way too long. Do what you feel is best for the show. Take the posts and suggestions made by everyone and then take what you will and go for it. Your shows have always been awesome in the past - why totally reinvent the wheel? :headwall:

Good luck sweetie - if there's anything I can do to help you in any way, please just say the word. You've always been amazingly supportive to me in the past - which is incredible considering we only see each other and talk maybe once or twice a year.

Go for it! :okthumb:



Last edited by kath at Jan 13 2003, 10:41 PM