I Am Moving To North Korea

[-= JR =-]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east...1311/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/24/nkorea.us.nukes1311/index.html)

i just want to be on the winning team when the shit goes down.

---------------
North Korean Defense Minister Kim Il Chol was quoted by the state news agency as saying the crisis was reaching "an extremely dangerous phase."

"the army and people of the DPRK led by Kim Jong Il, the invincible commander, will rise up to mete out determined and merciless punishment to the U.S. imperialist aggressors with the might of single-hearted unity more powerful than A-bomb,"

[Almighty Colin]

"We are capable of fighting two major regional conflicts. We're capable of winning decisively in one and swiftly defeating in the case of the other. And let there be no doubt about it." - Rumsfeld

[Almighty Colin]

It's amazing how fast the US has moved forward and embraced technological innovations in it's military. I saw a remotely controlled armored vehicle on tv a few days ago. There is a new class of drones that are launched from what is basically a giant slingshot (no runway needed). I would think there will be battles fought in the next few decades between a US mechanical army (no soldiers) and an old fashioned flesh force. That seems to be the goal of the US military. To be able to wage wars with zero causalties. How many soldiers deaths were there in the Gulf War or in Afghanistan?
148 official "battle deaths" in the Gulf War - with an army of 500,000 on the ground there. The American public has a very low tolerance for soldier deaths right now.

It is easier to make the decision to wage wars when none of your soldiers will be wounded. What will this mean for us?



Last edited by Colin at Dec 28 2002, 05:51 AM

[TheEnforcer]

Goodbye Cruel World
Goodbye cruel world,
I'm leaving you today.
Goodbye,
Goodbye,
Goodbye.

Goodbye, all you people,
There's nothing you can say
To make me change my mind.
Goodbye.



Last edited by TheEnforcer at Dec 28 2002, 08:42 AM

[Mike AI]

JR I think the North Koreans learned their english from watching WWF... I love the way they talk smack!!

I think the N. Koreans are looking for money, and food... they are facing a long winter.... Hopefully Bush can defuse the situation. However if they continue to bring fuel to the reactor, and turn it on - we will have to wipe it out - simple as that.


Colin you are correct about military. We can fight 2 wars at the same time. Everything I have read is saying that the technology we will see employed in Iraq is LIGHTYEARS ahead of the first Persian Gulf War - which at the time was like what no one ever saw....

One thing I like about Rumsfield is he pushes commanders to think out of the box, to come up with unique concepts and tactics....

We need to be fighting 23rd centruty wars.... simple as that.

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Dec 28 2002, 02:05 PM
JR I think the North Koreans learned their english from watching WWF... I love the way they talk smack!!

:rokk:

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by Mike AI@Dec 28 2002, 02:05 PM
JR I think the North Koreans learned their english from watching WWF... I love the way they talk smack!!

I think the N. Koreans are looking for money, and food... they are facing a long winter.... Hopefully Bush can defuse the situation. However if they continue to bring fuel to the reactor, and turn it on - we will have to wipe it out - simple as that.

i think N Korea has a very unofurtuneate "1991 Saddam-like" attitude.

War 50 years ago and war today are not really the same thing. i really doubt that North Korea can even begin to imagine what they would be up against. Saddam was definately confident right up until his entire military force was destroyed in 72hrs and his elite Republican Guard was either evaporated or surrendered to BBC journalists.

i imagine N. Korea would not even have gas money to drive to the fight.... but oh well... you should not push around someone and not expect to get knocked right the fuck out.

N. Korea will also be finding themselves with fewer and fewer whacked out dictatorships and Communists to align themselves with.

China is addicted to cash and economic growth and WTO membership.
Russia cant afford to take sides and no one listens when they do.
South Korea is ready to fight
Japan never liked any of them anyway.

I vote to turn North Korea into the Peoples National Democratic Republic of Glass Art

[sextoyking]

I gotta belive it's mostly about postioning with N. Korea right now.

Mike is correct, a long winter is coming and they need all the help they can get.

there will be a deal made, and ships carrying grain, food, etc will arrive.

[Mike AI]

Todd, I hope it is a ploy for food - but Bush needs to make sure they understand we will not be blakmailed. That bad behavior CANNOT be rewarded - or else we will have chaos in the world.

If N. Korea wants to play, I am sure it would not take to long to handle them... maybe year 2003 will be the year of unifying Korea!

That or as JR said, the US might have to turn N. Korea into a parking lot for S. Korea....

[Almighty Colin]

I agree witg JR 100%. North Korea is making the same tactical error that Iraq made in the Gulf War and that Afganistan made last year. Both tried to apply an incorrect and outdated historical analogy (VietNam/US, Russia/Afganistan to a current and vastly different scenario.

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by sextoyking@Dec 28 2002, 03:25 PM
I gotta belive it's mostly about postioning with N. Korea right now.

Mike is correct, a long winter is coming and they need all the help they can get.

there will be a deal made, and ships carrying grain, food, etc will arrive.
yeah, but Todd... thats also extortion correct?

i dont think its right to support someone who say's "yeah well we are forced to develop nuclear weapons and may have to use them unless you are going to further finance our radically fucked up Communist dictatorship thats brought nothing but misery and starvation to our people"

i think that once someone tries to play the "nuclear card" - they should be vaporized. there is no military strategist on the planet that will say "hmmm... well, maybe they probably wont launch, so we should just wait and see"

here is the best part. "diplomacy" - the UN and all relevant parties will try to resolve this through diplomacy. But thats what North Korea wants and why they are doing this... that scenario to me is not much different than someone taking hostages and making demands. the two assumptions always have to be:

1) the intention is to kill the hostages and you lose
2) negotiating with the hostage takers will cause more of the same situations and you lose.

i would be willing to bet that the US is not going to be sending any aid to N Korea. this whole thing is happening because they already stopped sending aid.

they were referred to as part of an "Axis of Evil" by Bush. I thought that speach was way out of line and typical of Bush's "fuck you if you dont like it" abrasiveness. i now think it was more likely that he and his crew knew this moment was coming.

i dont think war is a good thing. but i am also not too naive to realize that peace throughout the entire history of civilization has only come through defeating the enemy... and peace is and ALWAYS has been only temporary.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Dec 28 2002, 06:57 PM

[Mike AI]

JR when are you going to run for President?

You have my vote...

Hell I will help run your campaign!! :wnw: :rokk:

[RawAlex]

they were referred to as part of an "Axis of Evil" by Bush. I thought that speach was way out of line and typical of Bush's "fuck you if you dont like it" abrasiveness. i now think it was more likely that he and his crew knew this moment was coming.


Here is the good old alternative view... did Bush's team know this was going to happen, or did they push the buttons to make it all happen? Think about it for a second before you answer.

Stuff like this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Just like Russia was, N Korea is... poor, getting poorer, stuck with a command economy that doesn't function worth a damn, an absolute ruler, and people getting cold because of his stupidity. He needs to figure a way out of the box he is in.

I just hope he isn't stupid enough to start tossing nuclear waste around at his neighbors to prove a point.

Alex

[Mike AI]

Alex words from the President of the US made in the State of the Union address did not make N. Korea a world menace.

These guys have been problems for decades, and recently have been trying to rattle their sabers, and trying to extort the world with nuclear weapons. Even Clinton claimed that he had plans to destrpy the reactor if they did not shut it down.... instead Clinton gave the N. Koreans billions of dollars.

Bush is handling it right.... hopefully if he has to drop the hammer he will do it with extreme prejudice.

[PornoDoggy]

hopefully if he has to drop the hammer he will do it with extreme prejudiceThat's cheap-ass rhetoric from a [bad] imitation Clancy novel. A billion here, a billion there might just be worth the lives of thousands of American servicemen, and as a side benefit save the lives of millions of Koreans. There is no reason in the world for this to escalate to anything serious - at least not now - and in spite of Rumsfeld's bravado, the timing could not be worse. There's Iraq ... and who was that other guy? "Al" somebody ...

I have (for all practical purposes) a son-in-law getting ready to take another U.S.M.C.-sponsored trip, and his destination isn't a mystery to anyone on the fucking planet. I know very well that this sort of thing is what he signed up to do - been there, done that, stenciled that T-shirt and updated that will. Mr. Ryan, just out of curiousity, how many people serving in BaitCorps on the line in S. Korea do you know? Or how many of the "first responders" to any incident there do you know? You going to go sign up to defend Seoul from the bad guys in the north?

[Mike AI]

PD - I hope we do not have to go to war. I have many friends and family in the military. However, military force is a legitmate extension of foreign policy - especially when it comes to defending our country.

My friends and family that are in the military and I suspect everyone who joins - understand that they may have to go into harms way to defend this nation. Iraq and Korea are threats. We cannot allow for Nuclear Prolifiration to continue.... North Korea has to be stopped.

If it is through diplomacy - that would be great - but we have to be willing an the N. Koreans must know that we are willing to do what it takes - a legimate credible threat is important and many times helps difuse situations.

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by PornoDoggy@Dec 29 2002, 06:11 PM
[b] hopefully if he has to drop the hammer he will do it with extreme prejudiceThat's cheap-ass rhetoric from a imitation Clancy novel. A billion here, a billion there might just be worth the lives of thousands of American servicemen, and as a side benefit save the lives of millions of Koreans. There is no reason in the world for this to escalate to anything serious - at least not now - and in spite of Rumsfeld's bravado, the timing could not be worse. There's Iraq ... and who was that other guy? "Al" somebody ...

PD.... how can you say there is "no reason in the world for this to escalate into anything serious"?

North Korea is now a couple months from producing weapons grade plutonium. They are thought to have 2 nuclear weapons today.

you yourself, comment on the timing. thats kinda the point of all this. the timing. he chose a good time to kick out inspectors from The International Atomic Energy Agency, fired up those same reactors they agreed to shut down and are now well on their way to producing weapons grade plutonium within a couple months.

They just started up the SAME reactors that your mentor, savior, Lord, sex idol and partner to the all mighty and glorious inventor of the Internet, was rightly prepared to bomb in 1994. instead, they ended up with the 1994 Nuclear Accord (i think its called) to which North Korea agreed to shut down certain sites and stop mining Uranium in exchange for oil, food and other goodies. Unfortuneately, they never stopped. they shut down one site and helped install all the monitoring equipment and started patting themselves on the back while they started up another site elsewhere.

as much as i appreciate Alex's Utopianistic ideas of how things should be, i think it may be necessary to spoil the conversation with a few facts.

1) The Korean War is not over
2) North Korea is by anyones definition, a rogue nation, reclusive, isolated, unpredictable, desperate and failing economically
3) In spite of the 1994 Nuclear Accord, North Korea continued to develop nuclear weapons - as you may be aware they recently admitted this was true
4) North Korea is obligated under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to cease all programs related to the production of nuclear weapons - namely programs for Uranium Enrichment
5) North Korea continues to behave in a manner that serves no other purpose than to threaten and destablize the region.

why would you make a remark like "might be worth the lives of a few thousand servicemen"? - what are the lives of those 37,000 servicemen who are in striking distance right now worth? what are the lives of the 70,000,000 people on the Korean Peninsula worth? what is reducing the chance of somone starting a nuclear war worth?



Last edited by -= JR =- at Dec 30 2002, 05:31 AM

[sextoyking]

Hey Everyone,

good discussion in here, damm should of read the replies earlier.

Mike, Jr. I agree with you on the premis that if N. Korea is serious about using any WPD, they must be stopped in there tracks. the war never ended, that is why there is 37,000 troops near the dmz zone.

Alex and Pd do have good points. it's actually in bush's best interest to have some back and forth problems with N. Korea. just another overseas problem he can deal with and show that he was correct on the axis of evil.

Shit, Clinton himself was tough on n. korea. I belive they signed that non nuclear pact in 1994, but some of his old advisors say at 1 point, clinton was ready for some sort of military action with them.. What I liked about clinton admin more. is his ppl were more apt to go the diplomatic way first off, before threats, at least in public you know.

Bush really does come off as a cowboy, sorta like regan was. One good thing is Powell is Sec. of State. he will work this out and hopefully defuse the situation. Trust me, I am more worried about the terrorist in the middle east then N. korea. the leader of N. Korea might sure as heck be an asshole, dictator, etc, etc, but I don't belive from what I have read that he wants to go down in flames. and remember China and Russia, sure don't want some rouge, loose cannon, going off in that region..

peace

todd

[Winetalk.com]

Todd,
it's REAGAN, not Regan and
"There are 2 things in this world:
RESULTS and everythign else"
and TODAY we see the results of Clinton's "diplomacy"

as for Bush being a "cowboy",
quoting Russian President from
"The sum of all fears"
in our world it's better to be a guilty party than an impotent...

doing NOTHING, like Clinton did,
is DOING WRONG.

[sextoyking]

Serge,

I must get to sleep, but first off, Bush hasn't done shit about N. Korea yet. and Clinton admin. did quite a bit actually. mabey not with force, but through diplomats and the un.

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by sextoyking@Dec 30 2002, 06:13 AM
Serge,

I must get to sleep, but first off, Bush hasn't done shit about N. Korea yet. and Clinton admin. did quite a bit actually. mabey not with force, but through diplomats and the un.
what are the RESULTS of their doings????????????????

more nucs in North Korea?

[-= JR =-]

Originally posted by sextoyking@Dec 30 2002, 05:56 AM
but I don't belive from what I have read that he wants to go down in flames. and remember China and Russia, sure don't want some rouge, loose cannon, going off in that region..


from everything i have read and heard, the biggest fear is that he is preparing to go down in flames.

he cant last without massive political and economic reforms. there is no way for those things to happen without him jeapordizing his grip on power anyway.

he is in a very tough and ever deteriorating position and it appears that rather than risk loosening his grip on power through reforming his own country and economy, he would rather scare the world into appeasing him by becoming a threat that must be respected - which to date, has been more rewarding through the BILLIONS in aid they have already received than to suffer the growing pains and uncertainty of change and reform.

ok... so we try diplomacy. then what? wait for the next time he needs cash and knows he can wave the nuclear sabre? what about Iran? how many unstable, autocratic and enemy regimes are we going to allow to do that in the name of "peace" or "diplomacy" in the hopes of some lasting understanding? - then.... who will have their fingers on the nuclear trigger next? what rogue general will come to power or Mullah or whatever next and whats to stop them from repeating the same cycle over... or from even starting a nuclear war... or how do we know we will ever be able to stop Iran from launching a nuclear missile?

i think that there can be no room for negotiation when people start threatening others with Nuclear weapons. thats why there is a Non Proliferation Treaty that everyone agreed to.... yet somehow its ok to violate it, because everyone wants to "talk first", wants to "negotiate" wants to "explore all options" etc.

The UN passed 16 Securty Resolutions to deal with Iraq. Iraq said "Fuck You" everytime... and why? quite simply because they knew they could. because they knew that in the worst case scenario, there would be a Security Council Resolution 17 demanding that they comply with resolutions 1-16. How completely retarded is that?

Iran is next. Iran is following this same path right now. Russia just finalized a contract to start building nuclear reactors for them. they may not be "next" if they know the world will deal with them swiftly and severely if they start down the same "we should have nuclear weapons too, so fuck you" path.

but i think it is pretty rediculous to make an arguement of "what about the other guy somewhere else that is a problem too" - what about them? is one less of a threat because of the other? i dont think so. i think they are BOTH a threat.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Dec 30 2002, 07:15 AM