World Domination, Terrorism, And Other Fun Stuff.

[VooMan]

Okay, I've never really been one to discuss religion, politics, etc... but all this lunacy going on in the world these days is getting on my nerves. I try to read the news as often as I can, but I never really paid attention to much of anything before 9/11 so I feel like I'm behind the curve. I know there are two sides to every story, so I would like to try to better understand the events that have brought us to where we are today...

Here goes:

Question 1: Iraq - We seem to have shifted our focus from al-Qaida to Iraq. Are we hard up for news from the middle east, or have we been trying to deal with Saddam for years and things have finally come to a head? Some people believe we have lost our focus. Do you think that's the case?

Question 2: North Korea - As I understand it they ignored a treaty they had with the U.S. and have been working on building nuclear weapons while we send them free oil? Am I getting this right? If that's the case what are we doing about it? What can we do about it? And why is it okay for us to have nuclear weapons and not them? Who are we to decide what they can and can't do?

Question 3: Is all this just about oil or is there more to the story? Isn't that a two way street? America's only interested in oil, but then again aren't the Arabs getting rich off us "infidels?" If we're so horrible why do business with us?

Question 4: What is going on with the rest of the middle east? Saudi Arabia helped us in the Gulf War, allowing us to set up shop in their country... Bin Laden thought this was the worst thing they could have done allowing us on their holy land. Saudi Arabia didn't seem to mind. Who in the middle east can we consider friends? Who can we consider enemies? Who do you think is acting like our friend when in actual fact they are our enemies?

Question 5: What is the deal with the Palestinians vs. Israel? What is the Palestinian's argument? What is Israel's argument? Why does the U.S. side with Israel?

Question 6: It seems like there are a lot of Americans who feel that we deserve the current situation we're in because of things the U.S. has done in the past. What have we done, and to whom? Does the U.S. stick it's nose where it doesn't belong? Have we stabbed the people of the middle east in the back?

Question 7: We helped Afghanistan in the 80's, but then we left and didn't help them rebuild. So they hate us... If we didn't do anything to help they would hate us... Is the U.S. in a no-win situation or did we really screw them over?

There are some very well educated and well informed people here in the gumbo, and although I spend most of my time lurking I thought it would be interesting to pose these questions. I have tried to make them as broad as possible and I have only one request: I am looking for people to help me better understand different sides of the issues. I really don't want this to evolve into a bickering session where we end up bashing each other for our political views. "Those people are fundamentalist wackos," "Democrats suck," and "Dubbya is a moron" are not really the answers I'm looking for. There are people from all over the world who post and lurk here and I would like to learn something. Hell, I might even start a thread that lingers around for a while. :awinky:

Thanks,
Andrew

[Winetalk.com]

VooMan,
is there any way you can state your questions in the form of the answers, so we could play anti-geopardy?

;-)))

[VooMan]

Howdy Serge,

If I knew the answers I wouldn't have to ask the questions. :awinky:

Plus, I'm jealous of all these people who have popular threads. haha

[sarettah]

Question 1: Iraq - We seem to have shifted our focus from al-Qaida to Iraq. Are we hard up for news from the middle east, or have we been trying to deal with Saddam for years and things have finally come to a head? Some people believe we have lost our focus. Do you think that's the case?

Yes we have seemed to shift our focus. Officially.. Iraq has not complied with their obligations under papers signed at the end of the gulf war...we are tired of it, so lets bomb them

unofficially... George Bush Jr is getting a lot of pressure from conservatives to take out Iraq, to finish the job his Dad should have done... Although George Sr. did exactly what he said he would do... Get Iraq out of Kuwait.

Question 2: North Korea - As I understand it they ignored a treaty they had with the U.S. and have been working on building nuclear weapons while we send them free oil? Am I getting this right? If that's the case what are we doing about it? What can we do about it? And why is it okay for us to have nuclear weapons and not them? Who are we to decide what they can and can't do?

North Korea in 1994 signed a Non proliferation statement saying they would not develop Nukes... In exchange, we gave them better deals in trade, etc. So far, we have not done much about it.

I will skip "who are we to decide", just so I dont ramble :)

I personally think the North Korean statement that they have a nuclear program was timed to call George Jr.'s bluff. Here we are blowing and puffing that Iraq "might have weapons of mass destruction" so North Korea says "well, we have em, now what you going to do about it".


Question 3: Is all this just about oil or is there more to the story? Isn't that a two way street? America's only interested in oil, but then again aren't the Arabs getting rich off us "infidels?" If we're so horrible why do business with us?

Yes, it is all about Oil.... Yes, they get rich off of us.... Money does not care how terrible the giver is.

Question 4: What is going on with the rest of the middle east? Saudi Arabia helped us in the Gulf War, allowing us to set up shop in their country... Bin Laden thought this was the worst thing they could have done allowing us on their holy land. Saudi Arabia didn't seem to mind. Who in the middle east can we consider friends? Who can we consider enemies? Who do you think is acting like our friend when in actual fact they are our enemies?

Who knows at any moment what is goping on with the rest of the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is an ally of "convenience". When it is convenient to them, they are our ally, when not, they aren't.

Question 5: What is the deal with the Palestinians vs. Israel? What is the Palestinian's argument? What is Israel's argument? Why does the U.S. side with Israel?

Palestine versus Israel goes back to last century.... With the Zionist movement.....

quick rundown...

Balfour amendment proposed giving Jews a homeladn in Palestine...
1948..Israel formed from Land given by Britain
Palestine's main argument is that Britain had no right to give what they didnt own (kinda like the Native American Situation here)
Various wars over it (1967, 1973).....

Israel argues they have a right to exist....Palestine argues.."but not here"

We have not always been totally supportive of Israel... but, our support of Israel is primarily a "common Heritage" thing... Many of Israel's population are American born and raised...probably the most famous is Golda Merir.


Question 6: It seems like there are a lot of Americans who feel that we deserve the current situation we're in because of things the U.S. has done in the past. What have we done, and to whom? Does the U.S. stick it's nose where it doesn't belong? Have we stabbed the people of the middle east in the back?


We have done many things wrong (support for various nasties, shah of iran, pinochet, etc), we have done many things right.

I will reserve my opinion on the rest, for now :)


Question 7: We helped Afghanistan in the 80's, but then we left and didn't help them rebuild. So they hate us... If we didn't do anything to help they would hate us... Is the U.S. in a no-win situation or did we really screw them over?

That is not why they hate us. They hate us because we have Flush Toilets and Fancy Cars and Nice Houses.... We have affluence, they have poverty. Their government(s) have imposed religous law which looks at all that we have (or any non Muslim) country has as "godless decadence".

Hope this helps

:)

[Winetalk.com]

Originally posted by VooMan@Nov 22 2002, 02:46 PM
Howdy Serge,

If I knew the answers I wouldn't have to ask the questions. :awinky:

Plus, I'm jealous of all these people who have popular threads. haha
ok, I'll share the secret...
1) innitiating post should be SHORT

2) topic should be CONTROVERSIAL

elementary, Watson!
;-))

[sarettah]

Originally posted by VooMan@Nov 22 2002, 02:46 PM
Howdy Serge,

If I knew the answers I wouldn't have to ask the questions. :awinky:

Plus, I'm jealous of all these people who have popular threads. haha
lol...so much for the popular thread.... evrytime I post, the threads seem to go dead for a while :)

starting to get a complex.......

[Winetalk.com]

We have not always been totally supportive of Israel... but, our support of Israel is primarily a "common Heritage" thing... Many of Israel's population are American born and raised...probably the most famous is Golda Merir.
************************************************** *

really??????

so you know,
Golda Meir was born in Ukraine,
and brought to Milwakee at the age of 16...
she is as much american raised and born as me
;-)))

american jews are VERY small % of Israeli population,
VERY SMALL

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 22 2002, 02:53 PM
We have not always been totally supportive of Israel... but, our support of Israel is primarily a "common Heritage" thing... Many of Israel's population are American born and raised...probably the most famous is Golda Merir.
************************************************** *

really??????

so you know,
Golda Meir was born in Ukraine,
and brought to Milwakee at the age of 16...
she is as much american raised and born as me
;-)))

american jews are VERY small % of Israeli population,
VERY SMALL
I stand corrected....... I did not realize she was not Native born.... But she was from America when she went to Israel :)

But I stand by the common heritage statement....

Although the American population in Israel may be small, the Jewish population in the States is quite large and quite vocal.....

The United States "offical" support for Israel prior to the seventies was sporadic at best...lots of good talk, very little action...

Since the seventies, we have gradually increased our active support....

From my background (Long Island born and raised in a very Jewish area, I was the token Protestant) I know that Israel, in the Jewish community, was the hot spot... You did not say anything bad about Israel, support and loyalty towards supporting Israel, no matter what the endeavour, was blind.....

[Winetalk.com]

Although the American population in Israel may be small, the Jewish population in the States is quite large and quite vocal.....
************************************************** *

really?

5 million jews in USA out of 300,000,000 population.

please define "quite large"
;-))

[sarettah]

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano@Nov 22 2002, 03:37 PM
Although the American population in Israel may be small, the Jewish population in the States is quite large and quite vocal.....
************************************************** *

really?

5 million jews in USA out of 300,000,000 population.

please define "quite large"
;-))
lol... damn serge....

OK...not large as a percentage of the U.S. population.. But as a percentage of the world "Jewish" population... (and I am probably wrong on this too...you will probably come back with Jewish total population versus US...)

The American Jewish population (you put at 5 million) is roughly the same as the entire Population of Israel, of which 80% or more (approx) is Jewish

(best numbers I can find on Israeli population are dated 1993...I admit I havent looked long and hard)

**********************************************
Population* of Israels by Religions (1948 to 1993, in thousands)
Source: Zentrales Büro für Statistik, Israel

Year Total Jewish Muslim Christian Drusen Other
1993 5.261.4M 4.288.6M 738.3 146.3 88.1 972.7
***********************************************

************************************************** **********

Ok....

Now, then Serge.... What is the reason that the U.S., while they supported Israel early on, (on paper) but did not "really" actively support Israel early on.....now seems more ready to support Israel?

(your opinion of course)

Thanx in advance



Last edited by sarettah at Nov 22 2002, 04:50 PM

[sarettah]

Ok, got some better numbers from "The Jewish Post" (http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0807/jpn0807q.htm)

quote:
"Israel's total population in 2002 is 6.5 million people. But only 37% of the total world Jewish population live in Israel. Since 1948, 2.902 million olim immigrated to Israel. The sub-division is 81% Jews, 19% Arabs or Muslims (they tend to define themselves as Palestinians with Israeli identity cards). "

Ok, from this we can extrapolate:

6.5 million is 37% of the total jewish population............
Therefore the total Jewish population of the world is approx 17.5 million
of these approx 5 million (your number) are American
therefore approx 28% of the total Jewish population is American

I consider 28% a fairly large percentage... (not a majority for sure)

I believe that in actuality, currently, there are more Jews in America than anywhere else except Israel. And Jews vote.... In certain areas the Jewish voting bloc is given lotsa lotsa attention by the politicians... because the Jewish voting bloc can make or break them.

I am not saying anywhere in here that the Jewish people of the world are not a minority. They are a minority.

In the US they happen to be a very vocal minority (nothing wrong with that) and I am simply maintaining that their "Voice" is what keeps the American Government's policy focused on support of Israel. This is not a bad thing as far as I am concerned. In my opinion, we should have been "actively" supporting Israel from the gitgo... We should have been in ther in '67, we should have been in ther in '73.

Support of a democracy in the middle of a whole bunch of various forms of Autocracy is what we should be doing. I am glad we support Israel.

But the question asked was "why do we", and history shows that prior to the seventies (imho) we did not do much except voice our support for Israel, we did not take action. Since then we have taken some action, we have participated in mutual defense arrangements, we have helped build various infrastructure... Most of this, in my extremely humble opinion :) was because of pressure by the more vocal organizations to quit giving mouth service and take some action.

Needless to say, at the same time we were doing some of the same stuff for various of Israel's neighbors... In my opinion, that was because of oil.



Last edited by sarettah at Nov 22 2002, 04:54 PM

[VooMan]

Interesting...

I feel like I learned something today. Thanks. :)

Anybody like to add anything? I know you're all out there...

C'mon, just pick one of my questions and type away... :awinky:

[Torone]

"Question 1: Iraq - We seem to have shifted our focus from al-Qaida to Iraq. Are we hard up for news from the middle east, or have we been trying to deal with Saddam for years and things have finally come to a head? Some people believe we have lost our focus. Do you think that's the case?"

As it turns out, it appears that the 9/11/01 hijackers were partially trained near Bagdhad, where Saddam has an airliner fuselage set up to do just that. He also supports Al Quaeda financially.

"Question 2: North Korea - As I understand it they ignored a treaty they had with the U.S. and have been working on building nuclear weapons while we send them free oil? Am I getting this right? If that's the case what are we doing about it? What can we do about it? And why is it okay for us to have nuclear weapons and not them? Who are we to decide what they can and can't do?"

At this time, North Korea is unable to threaten the U.S.; but they have made it clear that they are prepared to launch nuclear attacks on their neighbors if we take military action against them. Therefore, we are 'exploring diplomatic solutions'.

"Question 3: Is all this just about oil or is there more to the story? Isn't that a two way street? America's only interested in oil, but then again aren't the Arabs getting rich off us "infidels?" If we're so horrible why do business with us?"

America IS interested in oil (ever seen an electric aircraft?); but the important thing is that people like ben Laden, Arafat, and Hussein WANT US DEAD!

"Question 4: What is going on with the rest of the middle east? Saudi Arabia helped us in the Gulf War, allowing us to set up shop in their country... Bin Laden thought this was the worst thing they could have done allowing us on their holy land. Saudi Arabia didn't seem to mind. Who in the middle east can we consider friends? Who can we consider enemies? Who do you think is acting like our friend when in actual fact they are our enemies?"

The Saudi Royal Family rules their land by force. Many years ago, a treaty was signed which guaranteed that we would protect them; and they would sell us oil. We were allowed th set up shop there for the Gulf war because they feared they were next after Kuwait. The fact that they are now crawfishing about Iraq makes me think that Iraq somehow represents a much greater threat to them than they did back then.

"Question 5: What is the deal with the Palestinians vs. Israel? What is the Palestinian's argument? What is Israel's argument? Why does the U.S. side with Israel?"

The Palestinians are cannon fodder for the rest of the Islamic world. Publicly, they claim to want a Palestinian state; but the local press makes it clear that they REALLY want the total and complete end of ALL Jews, worldwide. We side with Israel for that reason, and because Israel is the ONLY nation over there which is considered a reliable friend to us.

"Question 6: It seems like there are a lot of Americans who feel that we deserve the current situation we're in because of things the U.S. has done in the past. What have we done, and to whom? Does the U.S. stick it's nose where it doesn't belong? Have we stabbed the people of the middle east in the back?"

A lot? Define that term. Personally, If I hated this country as much as the 'blame America first' crowd, I'd be outta here. The fact is, that the people over there who hate us are being indoctrinated to believe that so that their dictators do not have to share their oil money with their people. WE'RE the ones getting backstabbed.

"Question 7: We helped Afghanistan in the 80's, but then we left and didn't help them rebuild. So they hate us... If we didn't do anything to help they would hate us... Is the U.S. in a no-win situation or did we really screw them over?"

The Taliban did the screwing. We supplied them with weapons to defeat the USSR, and the Taliban gratefully ordered us out when we were no longer needed.

BTW, Vooman, Where have YOU been?;}}}

[Almighty Colin]

Originally posted by VooMan@Nov 22 2002, 01:58 PM
all this lunacy going on in the world these days is getting on my nerves.
Compared to the last century, I would define these times as "quiet".

[PornoDoggy]

Torone ... where is your proof that the 9/11 hijackers trained near Baghdad? What is the source of your information? I'm really curious about that, because I've never seen it. I suggest that you forward this information on to Mr. G. W. Bush, White House, Washington D.C. I assure you that if HE had reliable information of that sort we would be occupying Baghdad at this point in time, and there isn't an American, right or left (leaving out the pacifists) who would argue for a moment.

Also, when did the Taliban order us out? We did not specifically aid the Taliban ... we aided virtually anybody who was fighting the Russians. We DID NOT aid the forces that formed the initial secular government when the Taliban began a civil war that ultimately allowed them to take control. We were long gone by the time that happened.

When has North Korea made it clear that they would nuke their neighbors if we attack them? They have retracted the one alleged admission that they are in possession of actual weapons ... they have admitted to a weapons program. That's an odd statement, even for you. If we take military action against them, it would have to be in conjunction with S. Korea. I doubt very seriously they are going to nuke China or Russia if we take action against them; meaning, of course, that they would be nuking the folks taking action against them.

[-= JR =-]

PD
With all his might and power God himself cannot rewrite history.
because thats Torones job
:rolleyes:

[TheEnforcer]

Originally posted by -= JR =-@Nov 23 2002, 05:03 PM
PD
With all his might and power God himself cannot rewrite history.
because thats Torones job
:rolleyes:
ROFLMFAO!!!

:rokk: :wnw: